Parish Council press on with allotment plan

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Alderley Edge Parish Council (AEPC) has taken over the management of the three allotments sites in the village. 

Cheshire East Council (CEC) transferred the allotments at Beech Close, Chorley Hall Lane and Heyes Lane by way of a long lease with restrictive covenants preserving their use for allotments.

However, the Parish Council are proceeding with plans to relocate the Heyes Lane allotments to land off Lydiat Lane, which is owned by Alderley Edge School for Girls. This will enable them to build a car park on the Heyes Lane site, providing additional spaces for both the new medical centre and revamped hall.

Cllr Frank Keegan confirmed at Monday's Parish Council meeting that they will be writing to allotment holders this week to inform them of their plans to relocate the allotments to the site behind Netherfields.

He told his fellow councillors "We have now completed the contracts with Cheshire East and the allotments are now the property of Alderley Edge Parish Council.

"We have received the list of current members and we have today received a list of waiting list members.

"We propose to send out a letter from tomorrow to all current members asking if they wish to be retained as tenants on the allotment site. We'll also be sending a letter to people on the waiting list asking if they want to continue to be on the waiting list."

The waiting list contains about 40 people, although some of these already appear to have allotments so the list needs double checking. The Parish Council will also ask if those on the waiting list would accept an offer for an allotment on Lydiat Lane.

Cllr Keegan added "We are indicating to the allotment holders tomorrow in the letter that goes out that the Parish Council will apply to DCLG to take over it and use the Heyes Lane site as a car park and that we are offering all of the current members the opportunity to remain in Alderley Edge but it would be on a different site. We would need to acquire the Lydiat Lane site.

"If it turns out that they do not vote for the Lydiat Lane site that's fine in that case we will relocate the Heyes Lane allotments to a different site. We will free up allotments on different sites by restricting access to allotments to people who are Alderley Edge Council Tax payers. That would give us more than enough allotments elsewhere.

"They will hopefully come back by the end of the month to tell us if they want to retain all the current allotment holders or not, in which case we will go ahead and take the action to restrict it to only Alderley Edge people."

Cllr Keegan confirmed that currently just under 50% of those who have allotments at Heyes Lane and Chorley Hall Lane live outside of the village.

He added "We won't know really know until the people come back but it is the Parish Council's intention to ask DCLG to create a grass crete car park and that's what we will press on with as quickly as possibly."

The Heyes Lane allotment site was gifted to the Council's predecessor authority in 1917 subject to a covenant that it could not be used other than as open space, recreational ground, playing fields, allotments and public gardens so AEPC will have to obtain permission from De Trafford Estates for that covenant to be lifted.

They will also need to approach the Secretary of State and request permission to relocate the allotments and consult North West Allotment Association on the proposed move.

If the Secretary of State consents to the transfer of the Heyes Lane allotments to land behind Netherfields then AEPC will need to go back to CEC, as landowners, to discuss their future plans and obtain permission.

Cllr Frank Keegan continued "The Parish Council firstly propose to run the allotments themselves, we will collect the rents and inspect the allotment sites to make sure they are properly kept.

"We will also deal with each site independently, the three sites may in turn agree to establish themselves as a committee to run things like the Allotment Annual Show, that's fine, that's not the function of the Parish Council.

"The function of the Parish Council is to provide and maintain the allotments and we would prefer to deal with three separate sites, we have no intention of dealing with an allotment group covering all three because we don't think that works."

The relocation of the allotments relies on Alderley Edge School for Girls being able to use another plot of land, which is currently owned by Cheshire East Council, to build a new sports facility on.

The proposed site is former farm land adjacent to the bypass and near the Harden Park roundabout. CEC purchased this land when the bypass was being planned and are currently looking into the disposal of it.

Plans to relocate the Heyes Lane allotments have been met with resistance from some allotment holders and local residents. A community action group was set up to save Heyes Lane allotments and the Council received 129 objections when they announced their intention to dispose of Heyes Lane, Chorley Hall Lane and Beech Close allotment sites.

Speaking after the Parish Council meeting, John Sanderson, Chairman of the Alderley Edge Garden and Allotments Society, said "It was an amazing statement made by Cllr Keegan at the Parish Council this evening. He got a lot wrong and clearly thinks he has a straight forward route ahead. We do not agree.

"Never has the Parish Council discussed allotments, except 18 months ago when it agreed in principle to take them over.

"Since then there has been no resolution in Council or any of its committees. We dispute, therefore, that the PC has legally taken over the lease. There is a long way to go, definitely years, and it is far too early to express opinions about a move from Heyes Lane.

"Whether the lease is legally held or not, the Parish Council does not have the power or authority to relocate allotment holders from one site to another."

The Parish Council will send the letters to allotment holders this week and replies should be returned by the end of February. 

Cllr Keegan added "The Parish Council will announce the outcome of the letter to tenants as soon as possible, and will then take action to manage the allotments effectively.

"The Allotments Society has effectively had its deal with Cheshire East cancelled, because the ownership has transferred to AEPC, who are concerned that many tenants felt they had no voice within the current regime. We want to empower the tenants by treating the sites as separate units, and allowing each unit a voice."

Tags:
Allotments, Cheshire East Council, Heyes Lane Allotments
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Comments

Here's what readers have had to say so far. Why not add your thoughts below.

Judy Tomlinson
Tuesday 12th February 2013 at 4:42 pm
Councillor Keegan is continuing with his campaign to use the Heyes Lane allotment site for his own plans - a campaign which he has been running since at least 1993 when he announced plans to build a medical centre on part of the site within twelve months.

At the Parish Council meeting yesterday he made many assertions, but he has overlooked the reality.
The lease which the PC has just signed with Cheshire East contains a clause which states that the allotment sites must remain as allotments. He could not persuade CEC in June that a car park on the Heyes Lane site was a good idea. Nor has he been able to remove the clause during protracted discussions about the lease. How does he expect to get approval of his plan in the future?
Secondly there is a covenant set up by de Trafford estates when they gave the land to the then local authority. This covenant restricts the land to use for recreation or open space purposes. The Parish Council cannot simply ignore this.
Thirdly the Heyes Lane site is a statutory allotment, and alongside obtaining the Secretary of State's permsission, the Parish Council would need to provide a statutory allotment with at least the equivalent facilities in order to release Heyes Lane. The Parish Council does not have access to, let alone own, the Lydiat Lane site. So it has a long way to go.

In summer 2012 Councillor Keegan indicated that when the Parish Council took over the running of the allotments it would hold a meeting in September 2012 to discuss its proposals. What happened to this meeting? Where is the Parish Council's plan for developing and supporting allotment use? How is the Parish Council going to use the income from the allotments, which must be used for allotment purposes.

There is a legal Tenancy Agreement between CEC and the Alderley Edge Allotment & Gardens Society (AEA&GS) outlining the way in which the responsibilities and duties were shared. This agreement passes to the Parish Council. If they wish to change it they will need to do it by drawing up a different agreement and taking it through the necessary steps. So it is difficult to see how Cllr Keegan can suddenly decide that the allotments will be run differently.

Cllr Keegan asserts that ownership of the allotments has passed to AEPC. This is not the case. The land remains owned by CEC leased to the Parish Council for allotments.

I have not seen the letter which is to be sent to all the allotment holders. I would not want to respond to such a letter unless and until there was clear information about what is specifically being promised, with assurances that these promises will be fulfilled. Cllr Keegan is not in a position to give these assurances at the moment as, amongst other reasons, they rest on gaining the use of the Lydiat Lane site. I would resist the threats that are implicit in Cllr Keegan's statements that if allotment holders do not agree to his plans within a month, then the Parish Council will proceed with its plans without their consent.

What a shame that this Parish Council does not act in a democratic way, working to the benefit of all members of the community.
Terry Bowes
Tuesday 12th February 2013 at 5:43 pm
Very well put Judy.
I don't know if the report is the view of the council or the words of F.K.But the total arrogance of the P.C.beggars belief.
As for splitting the allotments into single units,presumably to bully each into submission,there is still an allotment society that will represent all three sites and support them.Not forgetting the National Society.
Remember you vote these people in !!!
Ian Miller
Tuesday 12th February 2013 at 5:50 pm
Typical bullying tactics as usual . Ask tenants for their views whilst at the same time threatening them with eviction or enforced relocation even though as things stand the Parish Council has no power to do either of those things.
Claire MacLeod
Tuesday 12th February 2013 at 5:55 pm
"we have no intention of dealing with an allotment group covering all three because we don't think that works" - Such a transparent strategy of 'divide and conquer'!

How can the Parish Council send a letter to all allotment holders, indicating their plans, when the issue has not been discussed yet at any Parish Council meetings?

Is Councillor Keegan prepared to officially confirm that he is speaking on behalf of all councillors when he speaks to the press and makes sweeping statements at meetings?

What is the Parish Council's official response to the significant opposition that has been expressed by local residents to the proposed removal of precious green space in the midst of our village for a superfluous car park which will be under-used and ultimately, predictably, be sold to developers for profitable housing?
Mike Norbury
Tuesday 12th February 2013 at 6:19 pm
this beggers belief Cllr keegan is showing his true nature now .
Ruth Norbury
Tuesday 12th February 2013 at 6:58 pm
There was also a Covenant on the Village Institute (remember the Institute? It's now Jones Homes flats) but the developer moved in to start demolition on a Saturday morning. An old trick - by the time the Council office opens on Monday it's too late.
How likely is it that Heyes Lane allotments will be concreted over on a Saturday morning?
I hope I never have to say 'I told you so'.
Terry Bowes
Wednesday 13th February 2013 at 7:33 pm
How about grasscrete carpark on land readily available at the back of Lydiat lane, easy walking distance to all areas of Alderley and would save a vast amount of money in the formation of new allotments.
Colin Winter
Wednesday 13th February 2013 at 9:45 pm
Of course the Trustees of the Trafford Estate can modify the covenant if they are persuaded interested partners agree and the objectives are still being met. They might agree that a well designed car park there would help to encourage the development of a really first clas community project. There has been a promising start. Allotment holders should be encouraged and the present long waiting list is not encouraging at all. Has Alderley Edge reached the perfect
state so that we cannot hand on anything better? Static states dont last. Which way would we prefer to go?
Vin Sumner
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 12:53 am
Hi All

This is so rubbish by the AEPC.

Its time for a change; AE PC is just a collection of people prepared to tick a blue box as opposed to adding value to the village. Yes I am of the red persuasion but thats national politics, we need people who care about A/E , I do and ran 2 big events for the place in 2000 an 2005. We need a parish council of the people not one of vested interests ,have no idea when next election is , but lets start a new group who care about the place we live in ..... feel free to get in touch

Vin
Steve Flanagan
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 8:56 am
Hell hath no fury like a Councillor scorned.
Frank has a track record of failure in his attempts to get rid of the Allotment site in the past so his agenda is clear but to threaten mainly retired people with eviction purely on grounds of where you live is a new low.
Duncan Herald
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 2:17 pm
Hi Judy... the last line of your message is to the effect that the Parish Council 'does not act in a democratic way' and that the P.C. is not 'working to the benefit of all members of the community'... all P.C. meetings are open to the public and the public has a right to speak in those meetings; is that not democracy or at least openness? If you mean that the Hayes Lane allotment 'holders' are not getting what they want; that's nothing to do with democracy, as they are a minority group.

Let's cut to the bare bones; if a larger amount of land can be offered, in the near vicinity, for the use of more people then where's the problem with that?

Hi Terry... why is an open view of the Parish Council, a democratically elected body, arrogance? You may not agree with something which your Parish Council wants to do, but how does that make the P.C. arrogant?

Hi Claire... you ask how the P.C. can write to allotment holders when the matter has not been discussed...surely the matter has been discussed at great length over quite a period of time... I've had discussions with John Sanderson, the chap from the National Society and individual allotment holders (some of whom by the way are quite willing to move sites!).

You also claim that any new car park will be superfluous; have you tried to park in the village lately, especially at w/ends? we could do with many more car parks; no I don't know where they would go!

Hi Ruth.,.. you mention the old village institute... I recall it as a dilapidated old building; we got a new library out of it!
Hi Terry... a good point; damn!
Hi Colin... a voice of sanity... hurrah!
Hi Vin... calm down dear !
Hi Steve... do you think that if there are not enough allotments to meet demand that it would be somehow wrong to prioritise local people over people who do not live in the parish/village? I don't.
Mike Norbury
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 3:06 pm
hi Duncan why do you think its fine to ride rough shod over your parishoners amenities and treasured allotmernts . as long as keegan is onboard with you I will not trust your council.
Mike Norbury
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 5:00 pm
Duncan the allotments have a number of people from outside alderley edge for the simple reason that the land was and still IS owned by Cheshire east before that macc borough. the allotments had to be open to anyone in the borough who wanted an allotment. what the parish council are trying now is a crass breech of power ,divide and conquer seems to be Cllr Keegans game plan and the rest of your are getting tarred with the same brush. I am saddened to see this villages parish council stooping to bullyboy tactics . by the way do all councillors live in alderley edge and if not can they please stand down
Frank Keegan
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 5:09 pm
Vin,

Most times I ignore you, but this is so insulting that I have to respond.

It was the PARISH COUNCIL who stopped the Institute being sold for £200,000. It was the PARISH COUNCIL who saved the Library from being closed by a Labour led Cheshire. It was the actions of the PARISH COUNCIL which led to a Trust Fund being set up and so far it has distributed about £300,000 and still has over £800,000.

It was the PARISH COUNCIL which brought the Festival Hall back to local ownership with a dowry to develop it. That Hall is now being used to provide an important MEDICAL CENTRE for the people of Alderley Edge. Without the PARISH COUNCIL foresight in 2008/9, the local practice would close next year and all the residents would have to travel to Wilmslow to see a Doctor. It is the PARISH COUNCIL which will pay down the mortgage of the Medical Centre, and in about 15 years time, the annual rental income (about £175,000 pa) will be available for the electorate of Alderley Edge.

It is the PARISH COUNCIL which will create a new HALL for public use, very quickly self supporting, and ready to be available for an ageing population in providing Health and Wellbeing benefits.

In achieving these things, we will ensure that land (including all Allotment sites, and potential sites) is retained within the public domain; we have ensured that the Festival Hall site, including the Medical Centre, will always remain in the public domain.

The least you can do is apologise for insulting us.
Claire MacLeod
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 6:38 pm
Hi Duncan

It appears that Cllr Keegan is not the only Parish Councillor who suffers with selective hearing! I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself on the point that it is NOT simply the small minority (i.e. allotment holders) whom are objecting passionately to the proposed paving over of the village's precious green space. Even the article at the top of this page mentions 129 letters of objection. You know very well that this unpopular proposal is opposed by a great deal many more people than just those who have or might like to have allotments. Me, for example. It's an inconvenient truth (for you and Cllr Keegan). But it is the truth. Please, at the very least, acknowledge this fact in public.

And whilst (yet again) I acknowledge there is a parking deficit in the village, we all know that people appear to prefer to park illegally rather than use the free parking currently available surrounding the Festival Hall and walk the short distance into the village. What on earth makes you think they are suddenly going to use a car park next to the Festival Hall? Like I said, this smacks of a clumsily disguised ploy with the ultimate objective of selling the land to developers to build houses on.

And thirdly, perhaps you could steer me to the Parish Council meeting minutes where this proposal was initially discussed and agreed, please? I must have missed something as I was under the impression this was something that Cllr Keegan simply reported to Council as a fait accomplis, and not something where councillors' opinions, for or against, were sought.
Brian Braybrooke
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 8:35 pm
I am lost for words to express my utter contempt for some of the Councillors when are they going to listen to the people of Alderley Edge who voted them to POWER for that it what it is and may be other ideas not to mention some other benefits ?????
I have to say the comments already made about certain councilers are not without foundation ????!!!!!
So when are we all going to get up and oppose this mad scheme idea ??? Is the Lobby formed initially by the Allotment Holders still going and what action is being taken
I personally do not trust our Local Parish Councillors as like the Majority of Politicians they are in it for themselves if there not lets hear from them and any AE PC's who oppose this scheme lets hear from them ????
Ruth Norbury
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 10:57 pm
To follow Cllr Keegan's use of capitals, the PARISH COUNCIL paying the mortgage on the Festival Hall is really the ALDERLEY EDGE COUNCIL TAX PAYER paying for the mortgage. The projected return is only speculation, but with our money. If asked, I would have replied no, please don't gamble with our money in that way. That's not the PARISH COUNCIL'S job, more appropriate if the PARISH COUNCIL spends OUR COUNCIL TAX MONEY on mending street lights and holes in the road.

And ..... Duncan ..... we already had a library. The former Library on Heyes Lane? Yes, it's now Jones Homes Houses. What can I say.
Vin Sumner
Thursday 14th February 2013 at 11:07 pm
from coffee shop in Amsterdam

Dear Frank sorry Councillor Keegan , I am so so touched by the fact that you decided to take me seriously on this of all days , i guess it must be true love :-) ... take care

Dear Duncan sorry Sir , don't think i know you but you are you part of Life on Mars or some playback to the olden days when everyone knew there place ....

Guys .... get real, you are out of touch ,,,,, people do matter ...........
Frank Keegan
Friday 15th February 2013 at 7:25 am
Vin,

typical man. you don't even know how to say sorry properly!
Duncan Herald
Friday 15th February 2013 at 7:36 am
Hi Mike... there is a rule about where Parish Councilors live... if my memory serves me aright, its within 2 miles of the village; all do so, with most actually in the village boundary (me? I live close to the village centre and have done so for about 26 years). As to who should have an allotment; you and I will just have to disagree i.e. where there is a waiting list, I'll go for allocating to village inhabitants over 'outsiders' and if you see that as parochial (yes, joke intended!) then so be it. I repeat that I have spoken with a number of allotment holders... including meeting at the possible new site... and there are those who are quite 'happy' with the idea of having a new/larger site.

Hi Vin... nice touch of humour! If we all had to know our place then I'd be one of the proles (terraced, working class background; 'escaped' via the grammar school pathway). No need to call me Sir; just a gentle touch of the forelock!

Hi Ruth... the old library was always to go; at least we got a new one. You suggest that we spend your money on mending street lights but that's a C.E. job... tho' I do spent time on nagging C.E. to do just that and similarly mending holes in the road.

Hi Brian... you mention our POWER; what power? No 'wage', no expenses, no real authority; we're just a bunch of 'do-gooders! You write that the P.C. should listen to those who voted the P.C. into being; put that the other way round and say that the ones who voted for the P.C. did so because they knew what the P.C. wanted to do?

Of course new matters arise after an election but the P.C. does listen to people e.g. I get people telling me all the time what it is that they want to be done and possible moving of allotments site is not a burning issue to most people. Please explain to me exactly how I am in it for myself; will I invade Poland next?

Hi Claire... no way will houses be built on the allotments... actually what might happen 10 or 20 years ahead is unknown to me of course... I'll be in my dotage by then! Yes I know that there are objections from others than allotment holders... I'll wager however that if the idea of replacing Hayes Lane allotments with a larger space elsewhere in the village comes to fruition then the P.C. will suddenly be seen as good guys rather than bad guys?

By the way, would you care to join in with the P.C. 'campaign' to continue getting the cemetery improved? I'd very much welcome an activist like yourself.
Steve Flanagan
Friday 15th February 2013 at 8:41 am
I had to queue in the Post Office yesterday, eventually i was so fed up waiting i challenged the chap in front of me as to where he lived, Knutsford he replied, you can imagine my outrage how dare an outsider use one of our facilities, i pointed out the new Parish Council policy of making non Alderley residents second class citizens and invited him to step aside to allow me to take his place in the queue. i didnt realise i was in North Korea he replied.
Ian Miller
Friday 15th February 2013 at 9:36 am
It seems Duncan Herald and others on AEPC are quite happy to try and evict existing allotment holders who don't live in Alderley Edge despite the fact that these people all hold legitimate tenancies given under either Macclesfield Borough Council or East Cheshire's "borough wide" policy. Most of these people have put years of hard work and effort into their allotments but that doesn't seem to bother anyone on AEPC.

I would be interested to know how APEC intends to square its declared policy to evict non Alderley Edge allotment holders with the legal requirement to provide ALL existing tenants of statutory allotments with alternative plots when they either agree to move willingly to an alternative site (very unlikely here given the total lack of trust in AEPC) or are required to move following a S of S decision.
Terry Bowes
Friday 15th February 2013 at 10:14 am
It is all very well banging on about a new allotment site and how nice it will be with sheds and greenhouses and roadways put in along with water to plots etc.

A lot of people attended a meeting at the Union Club last year,various questions were asked such as how much will this cost and who is paying?Answer that doesn't concern you!

In the eyes of normal person of the parish we are talking mega-money.

Another basic question that still has not ben answered was, How many parking spaces do you expect to create on Heyes Lane.

Answer - don't know yet! very odd.

So to summarise,we are to have a new allotment site on land that doesn't belong to us. mmm!

We are to have a new carpark with lord only knows how many spaces we might have.

Dead efficient eh!!
Duncan Herald
Friday 15th February 2013 at 1:26 pm
Hi Ian... please do not misrepresent me... I have never voted/advised/etc throwing off existing allotment holders... my view is that when future allotment vacancies arise, preference should be given to people who live in the village... that's my own view... you may not agree... so be it.

You write that existing allotment holders are unlikely to move willingly; and your evidence is? I've actually spoken with allotment holders and some have told me that they'd be quite happy to move, if the new site is good enough... can we please get away from the 'idea' that the P.C. is enforcing some kind of draconian action on the massed ranks of outraged citizenry... most of the citizenry that I talk to don't actually 'give a monkey's' either way.

Hi Terry... I also don't know the answers to these questions and until the rumblings in the political bowels of C.E. settle and some decision/s emerge, I probably won't !

You write that there will be 'a new allotment site on land that doesn't belong to us'... by us do you mean the parish? because the parish doesn't own the existing site either... and if the 'land-swop' needed to get the proposed new allotment site goes through, C.E. will own that land; so I may have missed your point?

Maybe its me, but if (I know its a big if!) the new allotment site comes off, and is as good as the existing site,why should the allotment users not be happy with that?

Hi Steve... it made me smile; thanks.
Ian Miller
Friday 15th February 2013 at 3:01 pm
Duncan, you say that you have never voted for or advised throwing off existing allotment holders and I believe you. So how, as a parish councilor, do you reconcile that with the statement in Michael Williamson's letter (he's the council chairman by the way) of 12 Feb 2013 to all allotment holders which says, "If there is no support for a new site at Lydiat Lane, AEPC would allocate Allotments to two groups, firstly to Council Tax paying residents of Alderley Edge Parish Council precept and secondly to residents of Alderley Edge who currently maintain and manage their allotments to a suitable standard." No mention there of existing allotment holders who don't live in Alderley Edge.

How also do you reconcile it with the recent public statements made by Councillor Keegan, “We will free up allotments on different sites by restricting access to allotments to people who are Alderley Edge Council Tax payers”, and "They will hopefully come back by the end of the month to tell us if they want to retain all the current allotment holders or not, in which case we will go ahead and take the action to restrict it to only Alderley Edge people."

You may not have voted for or advised this idea but it appears that AEPC has adopted it as policy or is this just the view of councilors Willamson and Keegan again? It seems you may have been left out of the loop here Duncan, how democratic is that?

You ask where my evidence is that allotment holders won’t move willingly. Like you I have spoken to allotment holders, lots of them, as an allotment holder myself, I do so almost every day. You clearly don’t understand allotment holders at all if you really believe that they will speak as freely and openly to a member of a Council that they don't trust, believe or respect as they will to a fellow allotment holder.

Are you not going to answer my other point about the council’s legal responsibility to provide all allotment holders with alternative allotments?
Claire MacLeod
Friday 15th February 2013 at 5:21 pm
And are you going to answer my earlier question (which you have ignored so far), asking that you direct me to the Parish Council minutes where this very important and clearly divisive issue was properly discussed and voted upon? Or is the Parish Council really the Frank Keegan Show, where whatever he says goes, without challenge? Do all other councillors just blindly follow FK's instructions? Is it just assumed that what he decides is what's going to happen? I think this might be the point that Judy Tomlinson was making in her opening comment - hardly a democratic way of working or representing the wider community (although I'm loath to speak for her and know she is more than capable of speaking for herself).

And on a separate point, I hardly think 129 letters of objection reflects a community that doesn't 'give a monkeys'! In fact, I can tell you from our efforts collecting names in the village just over a year ago, the vast majority of people we spoke to felt strongly opposed to the idea of paving over precious green space for a car park.

Time to pull your fingers out of your ears and start LISTENING, I suggest!
Frank Keegan
Friday 15th February 2013 at 6:40 pm
Much is made of 129 letters of objection, and that it reflects strong community support.

Cheshire East printed the 129 :

A) wanted to support Beech Close.
B) wanted to support Heyes Lane, Chorley Hall Lane and Beech Close
C) wanted to support Heyes Lane and Chorley Hall Lane

How many people? Most rational people would say 3.

Cheshire East? They said 6.

The actual number of people is probably about 50. There were a few single site objections, but mostly they covered all 3 sites.

The electorate of Alderley Edge is around 2,800. Less than 2% of the adult population wrote letters.

Not even Vin in his smoke filled Amsterdam cafe would claim that as a good result.
Claire MacLeod
Friday 15th February 2013 at 7:36 pm
And the Parish Council minutes I referred to, Frank....?
Steve Flanagan
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 8:33 am
The flip side of Franks ethnic cleansing policy is that a friend of mine, an Alderley resident of many years, retired and applied to Cheshire East for an allotment, he was put on a waiting list but within 12 months was offered an allotment in Wilmslow which he took on. Five years later he is very happy and wouldnt dream of moving however what if Wilmslows Council decide to retaliate and adopt the same ridiculous policy. Its high time Cheshire East re-engaged and stopped this latest stupidity after all they own the land at Heyes Lane not the Parish Council.

Hi Duncan you have to keep smiling
Colin Winter
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 9:41 am
You elect a Parish Council to lead and act on your behalf. If you think they are acting illegally you challenge with sustainable evidence. If you don't like what they do you hurl character abuse at them............no! I got that wrong - you gather a careful list of what is wrong with it all.
Then you gather a significant number of the 2.800 to a meeting to persuade the Council; or you vote them out at the next election. Who would you get instead in Alderley Edge? I didn't vote for them but I stand by their decisions and am grateful they are tough enough to do their democratic duty. At the moment the score is 129 against and 2,671 either for or abstaining. In the hail of inflammatory language they should find that encouraging.
Duncan Herald
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 10:21 am
Hi Ian... re. your first paragraph... sadly I missed the last two P.C. meetings... the first 'cos I was on holiday (Cambodia; wonderful place... possibly apart from its politicians!) and the second with man-'flu... I have not yet caught up with the minutes, so I don't know whether our Chairman's statement is official policy or not.
Similarly Frank's comments.

If there has not been a vote (yet) then democracy is still alive and well?
Your penultimate paragraph shows how polite the allotment holders are i.e. they speak supportingly to all!

Lastly the possible legal duty of the council... do you mean the Parish council or C.E. ? My answer is that I do not know about possible legal duties... I'm not a lawyer... I do hope that we don't arrive at the 'lawyers at dawn' situation.

Hi Claire... if it ain't in the minutes then there hasn't been voting etc. but that doesn't mean that Parish Councilors have not talked over the matter/s between themselves. We are allowed to do that; I've talked about the allotments many a time, with some of my fellow councilors (e.g. over a convivial glass of wine in the De Traff.) 'cos its often easier to say what you mean and question others when minutes are not being taken.

As to 129 letters... out of 2,800 voters... and the letters were not all in favour of the same thing?... not quite an overwhelming, tsunami of support was it?

Your last line... whilst being perhaps a tad unkind actually means that I/we should listen to you?

You have mentioned that you don't think that all your questions are being answered (I've done my best); I asked you a question on Friday about whether you might care to join us in our attempts to improve the cemetery... if you want all your questions answered, then perhaps you might set a good example by answering my question?

Hi Steve... nice to read a reasoned and calm entry... you may well have a point there... its all still in the melting pot?
Frank Keegan
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 10:49 am
Steve Flanagan

You are exaggerating. The Parish Council would be delighted to have all the tenants on CHL and BC stay exactly as they are; they are prepared to take on Lydiat Lane and solve the waiting list of 29 at the same time as re-housing the existing Heyes Lane tenants.

I think the Local Government Minister will decide that the offer to keep all tenants, even the 50% on HL and CHL from outside the village, was a reasonable gesture. The tenants from outside the village, such as yourself, will find it hard to argue that they did not have their tenancies renewed and that the Parish Council made no attempt to find an alternative solution.

If the existing tenants who live outside the village vote to support Lydiat Lane, they stay within the village. On CHL and BC they even stay as they are. Even the tenants who have 2, 3 or 4 plots can stay as they are now.

Personally, I would like to keep all of the existing tenants within the village. BUT, more than that, I want the village to have first class Medical Facilities plus a terrific local hall. Lydiat Lane helps keep everyone in the village, and helps the village have first class facilities.

People on here, rather unkindly, suggest that I don't let them speak. A bit harsh, when it is reported to me that the Allotments Chairman has driven people away by refusing to let them speak at meetings.

This is a democracy; every single Tenant and every single waiting list "tenant" has a vote. Democracy works by adding up all the votes at the end and declaring a winner. The Chairman of the Allotments Society has asked people to send him their votes, instead of returning them to the Parish Council. For what purpose?
Ian Miller
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 2:33 pm
Mr Keegan

Re your final sentence; Democracy also ensures that people can vote in a way that does not identify them as individuals. It is hardly surprising that allotment holders don't trust the council and are highly suspicious of it's reasons for asking people to vote on this matter in a way that identifies them and which could leave them open to retribution. Why do you need to know the personal details of which allotment holder voted which way?

Allotment holders in Alderely Edge supply their personal data to East Cheshire council for the sole purpose of administering their tenancy agreements via the Allotments Society not so that it can be used by the AEPC for an entirely different purpose.

AEPC has never asked allotment holders whether they agree to this change of use of their personal data. Failure to notify individuals of a change of use of their personal data is a breach of the fair processing requirements of the First Principle of the Data Protection Act.
Frank Keegan
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 2:39 pm
The letter which was sent to Tenants and Waiting List is available on the Alderley Edge Parish Council website http://bit.ly/YeEC5l. The response form is signed as an existing tenant. The Waiting List had the same letter, and the final signature indicated waiting list, rather than existing.

I think it clearly shows that the Parish Council is trying to find a solution to suit the village, including Allotment Tenants.
Ian Miller
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 5:33 pm
This is not an answer to the point I made about the vote identifying individuals nor does it explain why AEPC has chosen to breach the requirements of the Data Protection Act. This is a typical politicians' tactic, if you can't answer the question answer another one even if it has nothing to do with the point. Perhaps the Information Commissioner will have a view on the breach of the Data Protection Act.
Terry Bowes
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 6:02 pm
I don't know why the P.C. is asking existing tenants if they want to remain tenants.We have all paid our rents and have tenancies until next October.
So asking now is a pointles exercize.
Why not ask neare the time.When people may have moved given up or died?
Frank Keegan
Saturday 16th February 2013 at 7:20 pm
Mr Miller,
It seems a fair point that you make, until you examine what happens at an election.

Candidates canvass for one point of view (ie their party) and they record an assessment of For, Against or Maybe. There are refinements but essentially Candidates know how the electorate are minded to vote.

Then they stand outside voting stations and ask for election numbers, and record those. Then they tally them up, in election rooms, and they calculate how many people have voted, and whether they were minded to support or not. On an election day, effort is directed to areas minded to support which have not yet voted.

Then political parties receive an official list from the electoral returns officer of who actually voted.

The Parish Council, by maintaining the details of Tenants on Computer would be bound by the Information Act, as are Cheshire East now.

So, the Parish Council could have canvassed all of the Allotment tenants and asked them the question "Would you support a new site at Lydiat Lane?". When they voted, The Parish Council would have an idea of whether the tenants were minded to support or not. So, when the result of the vote for Lydiat Lane was announced, the result would not really be a surprise.

The letter which was sent out asks two things : 1) Do you want to be a Tenant of an Allotment, yes or no? It is not a breach of information to ask if they want to carry on, in a new agreement with AEPC.

2) Would you support a new site at Lydiat Lane, yes or no? Of course, respondents are perfectly free to leave that point blank, and it would not invalidate their desire to retain their Tenancy.

A major return of nil responses tells the Parish Council, and it tells the Government Minister that, by virtue of the nil responses, there was no support for a new site.
Marina McHugh
Sunday 17th February 2013 at 12:58 pm
I would be inclined to oppose any decision to evict any allotment holder who lives outside the village and for new contracts only to be allocated to Alderley Edge residents. It is far too heavy handed.

Many of the allotment holders have worked hard for many years cultivating and investing in their plots and it would be unfair to serve such a notice.

I am an allotment holder and therefore speak with some experience.
Ian Miller
Sunday 17th February 2013 at 5:47 pm
Thank you for the explanation of what happens at an election, very interesting. But we are not talking about an election here, we are talking about the processing by AEPC of personal data relating to individual allotment tenants for a purpose other than that for which the tenants understood or agreed it would be used when they provided it in the first place.

Your understanding of the law applying to the processing of personal data is incorrect. I assume that when you refer to "the Information Act" you mean the Freedom of Information Act 2000. That Act does not apply to personal data it applies to information other than personal data held by any public authority. I am surprised that a councillor does not understand that.

The processing of personal data is covered by the Data Protection Act 1998 not the Freedom of Information Act. As you say, the Data Protection Act does apply to AEPC's processing of personal data about allotment tenant but not just because it is held on a computer; it applies whether the data is held on a computer on in some form of manual record. If you wish to check this I suggest you contact the regulator for both Acts. This is the Information Commissioner, currently Christopher Graham, and his office are in Wilmslow.

The fact remains that AEPC did not advise any tenants of this new use of their personal data before it wrote out to them.
Frank Keegan
Sunday 17th February 2013 at 7:52 pm
Your assumption is wrong. I meant the Data Protection Act, FOI is an entirely different matter.

You were concerned about abuse of personal information, and I was pointing out that the Parish Council is bound by the same conventions as Cheshire East - who would not give us details of Allotment Tenants until we had assumed responsibility for them.
Vin Sumner
Sunday 17th February 2013 at 11:21 pm
Hi All

Back from the haze of Amsterdam coffee bars, seriously though met some great people from around the world transforming their cities and communities to be better places , and the overriding characteristics of those of openness and transparency , both of which seem to be absent from this debate.
I want to know , what the intentions of the AEPC are in total for the allotments and other parts of the village ,and who gains ,who loses, what are the commercial interests etc , paint me a picture of A/E in 2018 and we can then all participate in a discussion. I have paints if you need them.
Stop playing games with numbers and narrow interpretations of democracy ; answer questions don't obfuscate. National politicians have a lot to answer for don't behave like them , if you really represent us , then engage us in true citizen participation and sometimes lose !!! , thats real democracy.
Frank Keegan
Monday 18th February 2013 at 12:03 pm
Vin,

I prefer the Amsterdam haze to this offering.

Democracy means, in this country, that elections take place and the person with most votes is elected by the people, to take decisions. We do not have referendums on virtually any topic. 2,800 Electors have the right not to be bothered every two minutes. AEPC decided that it was in the public good to give up occupation of a piece of land for a Medical Centre - no referendum, because there is no cost to the public purse.

The electorate are protected by various means : 1) Planning Laws 2) referrals to the various Secretaries of State 3) referral to the Judicial System.

At a Parish level, we are subject to Cheshire East, who delayed the transfer of Allotments for many, many months. The delays impacted on the Planning Permission for the Medical Centre; "democracy" was jeopardised by holding up a process whilst the Allotments issue was on the go. The Village could have lost the Medical Centre; is that democracy?

The Policy of Cheshire East was to return assets to local care, for local common good. When they were returned, in a Public Meeting in Sandbach, Allotment Tenants asked several questions, and the comments by the Cabinet Member, Cllr Macrae, was that the administration and policy making was now in the hands of the Parish Council.

Now, the Parish Council will ask the Secretary for Local Government to agree to the transfer of Allotments from Heyes Lane. (We treat them as if they are Statutory Allotments, but our Legal Advice is that there are very few Statutory Allotments)

You worry so much about democracy, so get your teeth into this: 50 people put in multiple objections and they are treated as 129 objectors. 400 people put in letters of support for the Medical Centre and they are treated as ONE.

Democracy??
Ian Miller
Monday 18th February 2013 at 12:07 pm
My assumption was based on the fact you said "the Information Act", and there is only one Act in this country that deals specifically with "information" as held by public authorities and that is the Freedom of Information Act. Obviously I should have realised that you meant the Data Protection Act even though you made no mention of it anywhere, my mistake.

But even if you have heard of the Data Protection Act you don't appear to understand how it works. You refer to the provisions of the Data Protection Act as "conventions". They are much more than that, they are legally enforceable standards for the processing of personal data, binding on anyone who processes personal data, and at least one of them appears to have been broken here.
Frank Keegan
Monday 18th February 2013 at 1:37 pm
Mr Miller,

In order to set your mind at rest, I have spoken to the Information Commissioner's Office. I read through the letter, and explained the point you had raised (ie that AEPC would know who supported or not, a new site).

Without hesitation, it was confirmed that there is no Data Protection Issue in the letter which we issued, or the responses which we seek.