Alderley Edge Parish Council had a heated discussion at this week's meeting regarding dogs being let off leads in the park, which is currently an offense.
Cllr Keegan raised the issue on Monday, 9th July, because dog walkers are apparently letting their pets off the lead and allowing them to use both the tennis courts and children's play area, which are being fouled.
He told fellow councillors "It transpires that people have been taking dogs in to the park then taking the dogs off leads so they cannot control where they foul. We cannot expect dogs to stop fouling if they are left running all over the park."
Cllr Keegan suggested that, given there is a bylaw stating that all dogs must be kept on leads in the park, new signs are erected in the park and wardens reinforce the law, fining owners who break it.
Cllr Duncan Herald was opposed to this idea, pointing out that children and youths cause more dirt and rubbish in the park, saying "every morning I pick up broken glass, sweet wrappers and contraceptives".
Cllr Melanie Connor said "A lot of dog walkers do keep their dogs on leads, there is a certain group that let their dogs off leads, most of whom are very well behaved, but they should be kept out of the tennis courts and children's play area."
Cllr Matthew Lloyd commented that if there is a bylaw then they should be enforcing it, but others councillors then pointed out that there is also a bylaw banning cycling in the park.
Cllr Herald said "You can't enforce one bylaw and not another. I'd rather the PCSO went around telling people to close windows because burglars are in the area, that's a bit more of a priority."
Cllr Keegan suggested "We go back to CEC (Cheshire East Council) saying they have got a bylaw in the park, asking them to put signs up and enforce it properly."
Interestingly, Cheshire East Council has recently consulted about introducing new some dog control orders for The Carrs, see Proposed new laws tighten leash on dogs in town park on wilmslow.co.uk for further information.
What do you think? Should dogs be allowed off the lead in Alderley Edge Park? Should people be able to cycle in the park? Share your views via the comment box below.
Comments
Here's what readers have had to say so far. Why not add your thoughts below.
Who are these other Councillors who are trying to justify not enforcing this Bylaw just because another Bylaw (the Bylaw banning cycling in the park) is being broken.
Both the banning of cycling and the banning of dogs off leads should be enforced.
The penalty should be more than just a slap on the wrist.
It should be the death penalty, at least, or worse !!
I think this issue is more about dogs fouling than being off the lead which is actually a wider village issue and we should spend our time tackling that because that is a real problem.
Rolling out the fun police to stop responsible dog owners from exercising their dogs in the park will do nothing to stop the irresponsible few, who will continue to let thier dogs foul, wherever they are, on or off lead, in or out of the park.
I used to let my dog off in the park (I didn't know I couldn't) but I don't any more, only because someone is now keeping chickens in the neighboring allotments, but when I did I always picked up after him and still do, and I never let him into/on the children's play area.
With the best will in the world, if you let a dog off its lead it will run around, that is why you do it. In guide dog speak it is a "free run". It may want to play with children, it may attack another dog, it may run at high speed and knock someone over.
Yes, dogs need space for free running. A small public park is not an ideal space.
Brian... I assume you bring your trainee guide dogs to the park to socialise them and get them used to new stimuli... surely if there were any dogs not under control that could potentially undermine your training then you wouldn't be training them in the park?
Keeping controlled dogs on leads is just ludicrous FULL STOP.
A dog is never really "under control" as all it takes is for some bitch to run across it's path and it suddenly loses control and it's out of control. (Bit like us humans really)
A Bylaw is a Bylaw. That's why they have them .. That's why it's not pathetic ! End of story !
Para. 4 says that no 'barrow,truck, machine or vehicle' (except child conveyance or invalid conveyance) 'be brought into the pleasure ground'...which could mean (a priori) bikes?.
So if anyone wants to see bye-laws enforced, you can ignore dogs not on a lead but may mean that you have to tell parents to take their child's bike out of the park; I wish you well with that one!
Para. 5. says 'no bill, placard or notice'; so the helpful notices about May Fairs or Xmas events shouldn't appear?...that's silly?
Teasing aside, shall we just get on with our lives and 'forget' about bye-laws that our forebears wrote in 1933?
Please no one suggest that C.E. should re-write the bye-laws...can't you just imagine what our noble leaders would come up with? no dogs as their flatus contains methane that contributes to global warming? for health and safety reasons, no children under the age of 21 shall play on the play equipment? breast feeding to be compulsory in the park?
Hi ho, let's get a life!
Some byelaws were created for different times altogether and, as you eloquently wrote, are often over-restrictive and irrelevant to todays society. Again, well said!
Dog walkers and families with bicycle, scooters, roller skates makes up a good proportion of regular park users, with the restriction place on them would it reduce the use of the park?
Rewriting bylaws would be a complete no no - just the issue with alotments and the Festival Hall has been a complete saga, how much public money would be wasted if we were going to review and rewrite the bylaws? Why not spend the money on better playing equipment and toilets that all villagers has been asking for.
There is already a national law on Dog Fouling, I can't see enforcing dogs on lead would change anything. Those who are offending would continue to do so.
Rachael...as far as I know, there is no bye-law against chickens in the park...on allotments? I don't know and I'm not inclined to open M/S Pandora's box on that. I had a wander around Google before writing on this estimable site; seemingly dogs don't even have to be kept on a lead on the highway...now that is silly?
Brian...all us 'good dog people' carry poo bags of course...as to greater spaces; there's always the Edge...which alas is often 'knee deep' in poo.
Brian & David...are you a teeny bit obsessed with dog control? The only times I've been knocked over or had to 'jump for it', in the park, is children on bikes; the exercise involved keeps me young!
Chris...thank you for your kind words.
Ricky...you are so right! ( I always think people are right when they agree with me!).
Elly...good to see your mama and I have brought you up in the 'right' manner!
Duncan Herald
As you have just stated, you've already been knocked over by children on bikes, so it could have happened just as easily with, say, a large dog running towards you off the lead?
And as for all the dog poo left around by irresponsible dogs owners, that's just disgusting !
If a dog, large or small, is off the lead in a Public Park, then there is no way the owner knows where the dog has been and what's it's doing. It could have run out of the park into the main road and caused an accident?
Dogs should be on a lead in public places at all times.
You don't like dogs off lead in the Park...that is your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to both hold it and express it...clearly my opinion is different. Wonderful stuff democracy eh?
I could have been knocked over by a large dog...but I never have...I could be bowled over by onrushing hordes of nubile women who seek my company, but alas that too has never happened...let's deal with actuality rather than my or your suppositions!
Yes un-picked up dog poo is disgusting; happily there are only a few such numpty dog owners about...what about the un-picked up broken glass (which dog owners do pick up)?
Can a dog run out of the park into the road and cause an accident? As far as I am aware it hasn't happened...mainly 'cos most of the Park has secure fencing/hedging around it...more to protect children from the roads and railway, rather than dogs I think.
Only way to keep dogs away from bowling green would be to put a fence around it? I understand that the bowlers would like that? Will C.E. pay for it? There is currently some damage to the grassed surface of the bowling green; the chaps who look after the green opined that it was caused by people making heel marks; people have been seen on the bowling green playing football, tennis, cycling etc. we've had tennis courts built and the footy pitch has new posts and new drains and there are new play equipment, so why would people play on the bowling green? beats me!...bring back the 'parky' please?
In this Act, a dog has to be under close control in certain circumstances and there are two ways you can have a dog closely under control - one is by using a lead, the other is not on a lead but otherwise under close control.
As someone who has had close personal experience of a prosecution under the second limb of this provision I understand it well. My own border collie dog is a habitue of the sheep uplands of Snowdonia. He does not have a lead and walks closely to heel when requested to do so. When the question of closely under control came before a Bench of Magistrates, they accepted that staying within 10 yards of the owner and returning directly to the owners side when commanded, even when surrounded by sheep ( both sides agreed that this evidence was correct ) constituted close control and lead to the Magistrates finding that there was no case to answer. ( A half time submission in the legal parlance ).
So can we move on from the dogma ( lol ) that surrounds this discussion ? Brian Etchells is clearly obsessed by leads. Fortunately, the law does not agree with his view. On the other hand, dogs are not under close control when they are running around out of the sight of their owners. If I can see William and he is within 30 or 40 yards - then I have close control - I know what he is doing and I can summon him back to my side in a flash should it be required. I do not let him out of my sight and I do not let him get far from me - depending on the area we are in. I watch him at all times when he is with me and the second he squats - I am there bag in hand.
I am sick of dog poo in the park and on the pavements, I am at a loss to understand why some people bag poo and then hang it on railings or hedges. If your dog does not come when called immediately then it needs to be on a lead. But, if you can exercise proper close control of your dog, then the law does not generally require a lead.
Duncan has a pretty sensible approach to this matter and should be congratulated.
And Lisa - it's 'offence', not 'offense' - the Americans did not take over the whole planet just yet :-))))
1. Do we really have a problem?
2. Is the problem to do with dogs off-lead or dog fouling or dogs entering to children play area?
3. What is the number of dog off lead incidents in the park? Is there regular issue with certain owner (s)?
4. Is there an alternative solution for dog owners? Is the council providing a dedicated space as dog park? If so, it should be within the walking distance. Just like the allotment holders, dog owners should not required to drive to the dog park.
5. How much would it all cost to find alternative and to police it? Is it good use of tax payers money? Shouldn't we be cutting cost rather than wasting money! The Lyme Green Depot in Macclesfield already wasted £800k of tax payers money! I don't want to see council tax going up again!
6. Should we really be wasting our effort talking about such none issue where we have many bigger issues like illegal and unsafe carparking. I personally reported the car accident when a child was hit at Eaton Drive and catapulted into the air due to the lack of car parking for school run. But nothing was done.
As to those imbeciles who hang dog poo on railings of shove it under hedges; shooting is too good for them...or maybe not!
Duncan Herald
If you want to see evidence of what a so called "well trained" dog under "close control" can do, I suggest you go onto you tube or The Guide Dog's for the Blind facebook page and look up dog attack.
I repeat my point, you may think your dog is well trained and under close control. All dogs are descendent from wolves. A hunter, gatherer animal. Guide Dog policy is to train the dogs to ignore that instinct.
It was only later that you announced you were a Parish Councilor, hence my comment about you having a hidden agenda, especially as you have now stated that you are AGAINST dogs being on leads in public places. (Thought there was a Bylaw about this) ?
Is one of the duties of a Parish Councillor to be seen to uphold the law ?
So, whatever your personal views, you should be seeking ways to make sure dogs are kept ON a lead whilst in a public place, not letting personal prejudice sway you away from this.
Many of the village Wives would agree that us men also need to be on a tight leash, especially so many 'lady k9s' decends upon the village at the weekend trying to bag their own an alpha male!
And Brian, as a guide dog trainer, surely you are aware how well controlled dogs can be? If dogs as we know them are still so close to wolves in temperament, which they are not, then why would they be used as guide dogs if so potentially dangerous and savage? What you're suggesting is that anyone who is not 'trained' to train a guide dog, such as yourself, cannot ensure their pet dog will ignore it's basic wolf like instincts.....am I not safe in my own home for fear of a Springer Spaniel savaging me in the middle of the night?!
Thank you to every logical and rational person who agrees with letting dogs off in the park as long as they're not on the tennis courts or young children's play area!
"let sleeping dogs lie" CHARLES DICKENS
There is NOT a bye-law re. dogs on leads; there is in the bye-laws no mention of dogs having to be on a lead, only that dogs should be effectively under control (whatever that means!).
Of course Parish Councilors support upholding the law; there is NO law that dogs should be on a lead...how often do I have to say that afore you 'get it'? Can I make it any clearer; NO LAW ABOUT DOGS BEING ON A LEAD...Hallo?
John M...congrats on your unblinkered views...welcome to the democratic & freedom gang!
If there is a wish to keep dogs away from the bowling green (do you know how much it costs you guys to maintain the bowling green?) then put a fence around it...will C.E. pay for a fence? Will the bowlers pay for a fence? Do you, the majority wish to pay for a fence? Tell me what you want and I'll do my humble best to strive for that!
Ricky...you are a good guy...maybe a little weird, but good!
On the Carrs, in Wilmslow,C.E. have (I think) decided to ban dogs except on a lead for a part of the area...do that in A/E park?...give over a part of the park to 'freedom dogs'? Yeah right!
Please remember that you vote/elect both C.E. and Parish councilors...if you don't like what happens, get rid and if you do like what's happening, vote to keep us/me in place...its all down to you!
Duncan Herald (Parish Councilor)
Oh, wouldn't that be wonderful
The Alderley Edge Parish Council had a heated debate and, according to the first sentence at the top of this page, it is an offence to let dogs off leads in the Park ....... Hence the discussion.
So, why are you claiming there is no Bylaw about this subject.
Quite clearly, according to the first sentence, that is exactly what you were debating, or have you forgotten already ?
In fact, one of your fellow Councilors stated quite clearly that there IS a Bylaw about this.
Cllr Keegan said "Given there is a Bylaw stating that all dogs must be kept on leads in the park" ...... How clear do you want it to be ? ........ What do you not understand ?
Why would you state you are a Parish Councilor ?
Because there may be numerous Duncan Herald's (God forbid) in the area and it would help if you said you were THE Cllr. Duncan Herald who was opposed to leads on dogs in the Park.
Elly Herald ....... I think you've got a pretty thick skin giving advice to Brian Etchells .
I don't know him, but I would assume that as he's a Guide Dog Trainer for the Blind, he probably knows more about training dogs than you ever will.
How can anyone be "rational and logical" in letting their dogs roam around the Park without being on a lead ? ... As far as I'm concerned that's totally irresponsible and inconsiderate.
Maybe if a few more Alderley residents trod in all the dog poo left around in the Park, then you may eventually wish to reconsider your views.
Its a nice little park...we keep it a quiet and pleasant place...most users who speak with me seem to want to keep the park as it is...and are happy enough to 'live and let live'...dogs, children on bikes, bowlers, football players, etc. Shall we agree to disagree about some 'bits' but then simply get on with it as a whole?
Tom...I so agree with you...I believe that 'dogs-not-on-leads' is supported not only by many dog owners but also by those who don't truly care one way or the other, but do resent it when our 'masters' (aka big brother) try to tell us what to do.
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
Ok, you all get it now!
1. Fouling and dog on lead is not a directly related issue. People who don't pick up is already breaking the law. There is a national on Dog Fouling.
2. If dogs are so vicious then Brian why are you training them for the Blinded? I would suggest a computer guiding device would be more 'in control', not likely to maul the owner and the family.
3. I agree there are dogs that are uncontrollable which should never been let loose, we have many humans who are uncontrollable too, these people create more litter and cause damage. And I return back to point 1, is not the dog not picking up their poo, it's the irresponsible owners.
Finally.
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
THERE IS NO BYE-LAW
Being completely matter of fact it is the owner/guardian/parent who must be given the accountability. That is, to stop a child or dog running wild across roads or anything else. Empower people and the vast majority will be responsible, the few who aren't will not be 'straightened out' by rules and cost prohibitive policing anyway!
No dogs on the children's play area I agree with, but the park is open space to be used with common sense and respect for others.
Well done DH for some very well put points.
It is a small park, my puppies are exercised on a wide open field away from the public. They are well trained and probably would not hurt a flea. NOTE PROBABLY!! They are not vicious animals as you imply, they are beautiful, well trained dogs I wish to take them around the park so they can get used to being around other dogs and humans. I cannot do that training with dogs not on the leads, not being under close control. It is not about the law, it is about dog control
Its saddening to find people so concerned about letting dogs off leads esp when there does not seem to be much supporting evidence, how have people come to this view?
Whilst on the one hand, I feel the park is a good 6am morning stroll for the dog on the way to buy the paper and a cheese pretzel from waitrose, before walking back and either getting into bed from nights or going to work; There is plenty of open land all around us to give a dog a full stretch.
The bye law vagueness supports both the for and against, which is a good thing. If something happens, this gives us the power to interpret and take action but likewise if there is no issue at the time then there are no offences.
There needs to be some lubrication (not literally) to ensure that all park users can fully enjoy the park with causing as little impact on others as possible. Perhaps this comes in the form of compromise and a touch of empathy. Otherwise nothing will be achieved and this topic will go from funny quip to insults back and forth. yawn.
http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2012-07-09/guide-dog-attack-rise/
Do you have anything closer to home/reports in Alderley? I don't think anyone is disputing that dog attacks occur.
I have learnt some things from all this...
Many dog owners wish to retain the right to let their dogs off lead in the park...some dog owners don't.
Dog owners need to pick up ALL dog poo.
Some people resent the big-brother approach by 'authority'.
Parents need to ensure that the gate to the young childrens' play area is kept shut.
There may be a need to errect a fence around the bowling green...3' high to keep dogs off? 4' high to keep children off? 5' high to keep teenagers off? If you wish to see a fence of some sort, tell your elected representatives at CEC... Councilor Menlove is the portfolio holder for this stuff (portfolio holder; oh dear, how we politicians do love our titles!) and Councilor Jones is the new Leader of the Council and Councilor Keegan is the man representing the geographical area of Alderley Edge.
You may wish to recall that CEC have a stated intention of turning over the park to the Parish Council; if so, then you can shout at and my colleagues and I !
You may care to know that at the Carrs in Wilmslow, one area is prob. to be made dogs-only-on-leads (I think that's from the large car park up to the river bridge) and the rest will be left as -dogs-run-free. That won't work in A/E park?
Enjoy y'all.
in any case if there was a law that stated dogs have to be kept on the lead, how do you plan to police this???
Brian, can you tell me how long the park has been open to the public and their dogs and then find out how many dog related attacks there have been there since it opened??? then this will give everyone a more statistical view and then a sensible solution could be made.
I say, "if its not broken then don't change it" let the dogs run free, and keep your eye on your kids if you have concerns.
First of all, I am an ex - Dog Warden, who has worked in some of the worst areas in the Manchester area, I have also worked in the MBC area, so I do know a thing or two. I currently have a dog (bitch) that Duncan knows only two well, we got her from the Cheshire Dogs Home so we know nothing of her past. Our dog is an active, agile dog who requires vigorous physical excercise every day (and gets it), given the breeds reputation of sometimes being quarrelsome with other dogs, I can't have her off the lead in the park, so for that reason I think it would be better if we went for a "Dogs must be on lead" By-Law.
So many times a dog will come bounding up to her and the owner can be 100 meters away and I get a dirty look when it seems that I won't let her "Play" with the other dog, I won't let her play with the other dog to protect the other dog (although she usualy only pins them down !
So it's "Dogs on Lead" for me.
So to try and put the record straight...
1.the Express article has 'A byelaw ... prevents dog walkers letting their pets off the lead...'. Not so. The byelaw only has ... 'dog be and continue to be under proper control'.... I double checked this with the old Cheshire County Council byelaws... again it has ... 'under proper control...' and '... effectually restrained from causing damage to property...' So can we all accept that there is NOT a byelaw requiring dogs to be on a lead?
2. The Express has it that I caused 'outrage in the room', when I said that children cause as much mess as dogs... yes I said that... mea culpa... go visit the park in the morning or in the evening, sweet papers, plastic drinks bottles, etc. etc. often dropped within a few feet of a rubbish bin; worth mentioning that dog walkers (and older people with an older sense of tidiness?) do a lot of picking up of rubbish?
3. Apparently I said that 'we can't expect dogs to stop fouling, if they are left to run all over the park'... No I didn't!... as one who prefers dogs to be off the lead, why would I say something like that? Senility is possible i suppose!
4. The Express has it that 'Councillors agreed to ask Cheshire East to reinstate the 'dogs on leads' signs and enforce the byelaw'... there is no byelaw to enforce... no vote was taken on any reinstatement;.. come on Express, you usually get it right!
Can we stop now? The byelaws were written a long time ago ... the Alderely Edge ones in 1902 (then adopted by the A.E. U.D.C.in 1933) and the C.C.C. ones were written in 1968 (then repealed in 1973 and then confirmed in 1986)... boring?
Leave the cycling children alone...leave the dogs alone... enjoy the park!
Should dogs be kept on leads in the park?
Simple question, with a simple answer.
YES AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!
Dogs should be kept on leads at all times whilst in Alderley Park.
Just to confirm that to have a dog "Effectually restrained from causing damage to property" (as stated two comments ago) means having it properly controlled, and as we all know, this means on a lead !
By the way, where would you suggest that dog owners should take their dogs, to let them off the lead? Or do you think that dogs shouldn't be allowed anywhere?
1) How do you know for certain that the people who wrote the Bylaws knew what a lead was ?
(Were you there when the Bylaw was drafted in 1902. If not, how can you say that) ?
2) You don't know ..."what they meant" ... do you, so why say that you do know ?
3) It's for dog owners to decide where they go to let their dogs off the lead, not for me to suggest.
It seems you are suggesting dogs can be let off leads in parks, just not in the park you use for training purposes. A bit nimbyist.
As to what 'they' meant... what 'they' wrote was what 'they' meant and thus anything 'they' did not write 'they' did not mean to be included?
We dog owners will listen to your advice... pray tell where you believe that we should take our pooches to poo.
"Should dogs be on lead in village park" ?
Now, the fact is that Cllr. Duncan Herald has totally disagreed with one of his fellow Councillors who said "there is a Bylaw stating that all dogs must be kept on leads in the park"
Why does Cllr.Herald dispute this fact when it was said at the Council meeting ?
Either he is wrong or Cllr. Keegan is wrong because one of them must have got their facts wrong, hence this discussion.
So, is there or is there not a Bylaw about this subject ?
If there is already a Bylaw about this, then why is one Councillor flouting the law ?
Is he there to support the law or not ?
Maybe Cllr. Keegan could join this debate and confirm finally if a Bylaw exists, or not ......
To Cllr. Duncan Herald and Elly Herald, .........
What on earth has it to do with you whether I use the park or not ?
As I'm a UK Taxpayer and Council Taxpayer, I have a right to air my views about this item.
You both seem totally irresponsible about dogs not being on leads whilst in the park.
As far as I'm concerned, I will not make any further comments about this subject as I find the whole attitude of Cllr. Herald to be totally alien to a normal debate, so ................................... "It's no good knocking if there's no one in" ...............
Answer -> None.
2. Anyone hurt due to poor parking during school runs?
Answer -> Yes
3. Anyone experienced their car skidded when we had snow at Eaton Drive by the school?
Answer -> Yes
PS. I personally have been manually gritting Eaton Drive with a shrovel and box of grit for the last 4 winters, never once did we get any help!
Why waste time on non issues?
I'm a tax payer also a parent, my child goes to one of the local school. I demand the road to be made safe before wasting effort on non issues! Give us free local school buses, Lollipop men and Lollipop ladies, Gives us better parking solution for schools. Grit the road by the schools during snowy winter time.
We need these issues sorted out urgently, if not a child will get seriously hurt soon. Stop wasting effort on stupid things. Grow Up!
If there is any common land, I think we have to ask the Lord of Alderley for his permission first!
You are quite welcome to state your opinion; tho' if its based on a false premise regarding byelaws then your position is weak to say the least.
Why is my positon re. dogs and leads irresponsible? Is it simply because I beg to differ with your view?
I hope shortly to post something about chevron parking on London Rd. on this site (as soon as I can find my trusty tape measure); so that could be a fresh matter for you to excoriate me over!
Marc...you're right... this topic should slither to a halt... but then again, its kind of fun innit?
If we waste any more effort on this and not focusing real effort on making the road safe, don't say I've told you so when a child get seriously hurt on Alderley's road.
People can comment what they like but there is no bylaw.
Dogs on leads at all times in the park - NO. Common sense - YES. Fouling is illegal, as I'm sure is letting your dog attack someone, that's all that's required thank you!
P.S. Please don't just blindly let your dogs run around neighboring fields and National Trust land without applying the same level of common sense. Livestock and dogs are not always a healthy combination and where they are concerned I do agree with dogs on leads, but that's just common sense for the protection of both the dog and the livestock.
Don't be responsible for a blind person not getting a Guide Dog to aid their independence.
Yes, that is also common sense!