Special meeting called to change of status of allotments

Interesting. The Parish Council has called a meeting for 29 September 2014. At the moment it is waiting to hear whether it has the authority to pass the motion which is proposed. Will the meeting be cancelled if the legal advice does not support them?

My understanding is that being a statutory allotment provides a security against a council deciding it wants to get rid of allotments just because it feels like. Under the 1925 Allotments Act it must obtain the prior approval of the Secretary of State for the Department of Communities and Local Government.

Cllr Keegan refers to the notice to quit issued by the Parish Council earlier this year. He omits to mention the letter from the AEAGS challenging the legality of this notice. The Parish Council has not provided satisfactory legal grounds for its notice.

Never in the field of PC endeavor has so much ducking and diving taken place, 'we're currently awaiting a formal legal opinion which says we are entitled to exercise that option'.

And so am am I over my nuclear test facility.

A whole 20 minutes of public input.

Extend the meeting.

Asking around there is a strong feeling that people in the village would
rather have parking struggles than irreversibly cladding Alderley Edge in tarmac.

Looking forward to joining you on the 29th not to discuss statutory or otherwise status of allotments but to seek positive alternatives to the issue that surrounds the measures under discussion.

Its never too late to talk.

I have been invited to a meeting tomorrow evening with Frank and Mike Williamson regarding these matters. I will be attending with two others members of our allotment society.

I would hope that anyone who has an opinion on the use of Heyes lane allotments as a future car park will attend the PC meeting on Monday evening.

For the record on a previous post on this matter I would like to add that I was not frog marched to festival hall in June to hand over information on plot holders.

Once the PC clarified what information they wanted and once a couple of people were back from their holidays we complied with their request just like we used to do with Cheshire East.

I informed the clerk of the PC the rent process that used to happen under CE which had clearly not been passed over by CE, over 65 discounts, water issues and management discounts etc

The AEAGS has nothing to hide and has done its best to manage the allotments over the last very difficult few years with the threat of losing Heyes lane.

I have been the chairman for the last year and my door has always been open to discussion. I have never turned down a meeting with the PC and in fact I offered to meet them again in May and was told no.

Let's hope we can have proper village meeting on Monday and get answers to everyone questions about the issues. I'm hoping all the Parish councillors will be present.

Fenton
Chairman
Alderley Edge Allotments and Garden Society

Thanks for the update, Fenton. I doubt many people fell for the provocative semantics Frank Keegan chose to use in his attempt to garner support. I certainly sympathise with you and everyone involved with the AEAGS . This must, indeed, have been a very difficult time for you all. Well done for sticking to your guns.

I'll be there on 29th. I hope lots of other people turn up. Look forward to seeing you all there.

As President of the Alderley Edge Allotments and Gardens Society, I would like to add my support to our Chairman, Fenton Simpson who has, in his earlier post, laid out the situation clearly and fairly. It is a reliable reflection of the situation.
Both he and I feel strongly that those who really care about this Village of ours should attend the meeting on Monday 29th September at the Festival Hall at 1930.
Whether you support the building of a Car Park on the Heyes Lane allotment site or you oppose it please come with an open mind. There are a variety of complicated issues at play and of course, you must speak as you find if you get the opportunity to during the 'open' part of the meeting. Traditionally this 'open' session is short, perhaps only 20 minutes or so, and it can be brought to a close promptly by the Chairman - so my message is 'speak it clearly and speak it fast'!!
Naturally I would hope that all the Allotment Holders from Beech Close and Chorley Hall Lane will join their colleagues from Heyes Lane at the meeting as it is likely that life as we all know it might change beyond recognition if matters conspire to go against us in the coming months.
To those of you who are not Allotment Holders but who want to 'support' us we will of course be thrilled to see you. To those of you who want to see the Allotments at Heyes Lane concreted over and turned into a Car Park I have to say that we would be thrilled to see you too.
In any event, we will all be demonstrating that we care about what happens in our Village but as someone has already said in previous posts - once the green spaces are gone - they are gone forever!
On behalf of our Village I hope that we shall see as many people as possible at this very very important meeting.

Michael Dudley-Jones
President, Alderley Edge Allotments and Gardens Society

Hi,
I've not been 'in' with this recently, as I've been in Barcelona for some tapas and sunshine.
One point/question I'd like to make: whenever the 'fact' that the loss of the Heyes Lane site will be compensated for by the setting up of a much larger allotments site, at the other end of the village, those who are dead against the loss of the Heyes Lane site do not seem to answer the point about the bigger alternative site.
Please answer the question: if the new site,at present an unused field, is bigger than the old site, why is this not an acceptable replacement ?

I was always of the believe that the allotments were a piece of land gifted to the people of Aldereley Edge by the De Trafford estate and that it was protected by a covenant? Is this is not the case, then how and when was this changed?

Hi Duncan,

Briefly... Lydiate lane has not been secured as an allotment site as of last Tuesday ( my meeting with Frank and Mike of the PC).

The Lydiate lane proposal is a 50 year lease from the girls school. What happens after that ?

The houses on that over look the proposed Lydiate lane site don't want an allotment site there, when they bought their house it was a playing field.

There are access issues to the site that have not been addressed.

See you tomorrow.

Regards

Fenton

The point that you have missed Duncan is that the People of Alderley do not wish to dig up the Allotments for a Car Park regardless of the Size of the alternative which you wish them to move too , when will you Parish Councillors get it that the Car Park is not required . I certainly hope you sitting councillors will listen to the electorate for a change . It is in your power to solve the " SO Called " Parking problem with out this White Elephant of digging up Heyes Lane Allotments

hmm did we ever get an answer to the question does clr keegan still declare an interest to Cheshire east re. his involvement with p.e.jones ?

Hi Brian,
we will have to disagree I guess.
You seem to be saying that there is no need for a car park. But I do get it; if you talk to the traders, they are desperate for car parking. If you talk to people who work in the village, they are desperate for parking space: if traders and workers are reading this, please back up either Brian's point of view or the parish council's.
If not a car park, then what? Please give an alternative to the 'white elephant' that will also provide in the region of 120 spaces; where do you suggest we put the cars?
When you say that the people of Alderley don't want the car park on Heyes Lane, that is not what I hear and I do damn well listen. I admire your devotion to the Heyes lane allotments, but I'm sorry to say that most people, when asked in private, don't share your devotion.
Why the aversion to a move from Heyes Lane to a larger site? People move homes, jobs, schools,why not allotment sites?

Hi Fenton,
when I bought my house, it was next to a large and private garden: now it is next to an old folks home; change happens?

Just attended this meeting.

The attitude of the chairman towards the members of the public who attended was plainly awful, of this there can be no debate;and indeed there was to be no debate as we were flatly informed.

A handful didn't turn up yet the vote went ahead.

Apart from one councilor who in fairness did make an effort to make some points to explain why he was in favour of the parking development, the others remained silent with body language to indicate they were embarrassed to be there.

The meeting ended with shouts of "shame", which is a fair and accurate appraisal of proceedings.

Never witnessed a meeting quite this bad either in the public or private sector. Very disappointing.

Well, that was an experience!
This was my first meeting with the parish council so I was willing to ignore previous comments about Mr Keegan and judge for myself.
Result: I now agree with what I have heard!

This is clearly an issue that many local residents feel strongly about and want to have their say. What does Mr Keegan do throughout these heartfelt speeches?.....smirk!

Is this how you run things Mr Keegan?

Not once was the fact that the on going petition has so far raised 1700 signatures addressed by the parish council and all answers seemed to boil down to the same thing.....'we can legally do this, so we will'. Maybe it's because of this bully stance that the two ladies on the PC panel couldn't even bring themselves to look anyone in the eye all evening?!

Living and working in Alderley I really cannot see benefit to a car park on this site. Nor can many of my colleagues.

It seems that Mr Keegan is keeping very tight-lipped about future plans for this site. I've seen the question put to him numerous times on this website and not seen a response. Most people know the car park will be underused and most think that it will then be sold off for development. Nothing from Mr Keegan on this point!

End of rant for now but I'd like to say we'll done to the people who spoke up at the meeting tonight. All spoke passionately for a great cause. It's a shame some of you aren't our local councillors!

Our Parish Council have passed the motion to change the status of the Heyes Lane allotments from 'statutory' to 'non statutory' this evening leaving them closer to being free to build a Car Park on the Heyes Lane allotment site despite the fact that over 1700 signatures appear on a Petition to say that this is NOT what our Village wants. The 50 or 60 people who attended the meeting were very unhappy about the process and the rather belligerent attitude that we now associate with our Parish Council.
The car parking issue in the Village continues to be a problem but I doubt whether a Heyes Lane car park will solve it. The new Medical Centre (when and if it is built) does not need it as the existing car parking close to the Festival Hall will more than suffice.
So what do we do?
The Chorley Hall Lane football pitch is used once a week in the autumn
winter months by the younger footballers. Move them and any sports
facilities that they need to the old Alderley Edge School for Girls Playing fields at Lydiat Lane. The residents there will be happy not sick with grief as they are now that they are about to have a new allotment site foisted onto them.
Turn a part of the Chorley Hall Lane sports field into a central car park for the Village with direct access into South Street via a subway built under the railway. Total car spaces could be in excess of 200.
If better facilities are build for Alderley Edge School for Girls opposite the Ryleys Sports fields and hockey pitch at some point in the future could there not be wider access granted to say to the young footballers who could then leave the Lydiat Lane site vacant again.
No concrete on Heyes Lane!
Better solution too as time from car locking to beer in the bar and grill less than 5 minutes!

On behalf of the speakers from the floor this evening I would like to thank
everyone for their continued support. May I thank John Bowden for his kind
words. They mean a lot, John.

Section 8 of the Allotments Act 1925 states – “Where a local authority has purchased or appropriated land for use as allotments the local authority shall not sell, appropriate, use or dispose of the land for any purpose other than use for allotments without the consent of the Secretary of State”. It is not within the power of the Parish Council to change the status of allotments from "statutory" to "non-statutory", but they could attempt to prove that they were not statutory allotments in the first place. I am interested to know whether the Parish Council was actually able to prove that.

Alan,

The Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) specifically informed AEPC that a Council had the power to alter the status of an Allotment site from Statutory to non statutory , if it received Legal Opinion to justify that action.

Case Law, from the Court of Appeal, defined a Statutory Allotment and AEPC consulted the Barristers involved in that Appeal Decision, and the Advice was that the Heyes Lane site was not covered by S8 of the Allotments Act - and therefore did not require DCLG approval.

The decision last night, to alter the status from Statutory to Non-Statutory, is supported by the legal brains who were in the Court of Appeal setting Case Law.

A very disappointing meeting for the village and local democracy. The medical centre project has been a farce from day one and now the car parking issue in the village has become intermixed with this. The contempt that the PC has for its electorate is shocking.

Only Four councillors plus the Chairman turned up and passed the motion. Shame on the rest of you who failed to turn up. Perhaps you will do the decent thing and step down next year to let some new blood in the rotting corpse that is this Parish Council.

This will be challenged by the Alderley Edge Allotment and Gardens Society and we are awaiting to hear back the National Allotment Society on the latest move by the PC. So watch this space...

In the meantime are the PC going to pay out the £500 compensation (per tenant) that is on the 2014/15 budget to the Tenants on Heyes lane? Despite the "main growing Season" being over, there are is still winter crops on Heyes Lane.

There are so many questions that have not been answered by the PC.

Who is paying and how much to convert Heyes Lane into a car park? What happens if the wildlife survey turns up protected newts or other wildfile?

What is current status of Lydiate Lane? planning application? residents objections? Cost of conversion? when this site will be ready?

When are the NHS contracts being signed and rent agreed with the Doctors ?

The list goes on unfortunately…

Fenton Simpson
AEAGS Chairman

@Mike Dudley-Jones,

Quell surprise, the decision had already been taken, and last night attempts at democracy was window dressing.

The petition, your voices, count for nought. The agenda was in place when Mr Keegan insisted that the car parking was required for the well being of the hall and in particular for the Doctors practice was in place.

AEPC never came out to the public and just stated - we believe that this car-park is the best solution for Alderley Edge. They wrapped it up in half truths i.e. the hall development, a private schools need for sports facilities and blocking aspirations CEC may have for other land.

They never trusted the public to go along with them by reveling the whole picture.

So they wonder why the electorate are so disenchanted and annoyed, just look at how Lyme Green & Tatton Park was handled, The CEC Core Planning Stratergy - and the horrendous mess we are going to get around Woodford, Handforth East and Adlington Road. Now at even the most basic level, we cant get local parish Councillors to reconsider.

Just remember when it comes to vote, who was involved. Even then I have my doubts as so many people just aren't interested.

Graham Jackson,

When "it comes to vote” you very cleverly did not imply that you could vote. Why? Because you do not live in Alderley Edge. So what is your agenda?

I am still staggered by the obnoxious attitude the parish council has last night we had a chair who was beyond rude in his attitude 2 lady councillors who looked embarrassed and never spoke and clr keegan in full arrogance mode one turned up late and didn't speak and the rest could not be bothered or some excuse. the amount of our money they are wasting in legal fees etc getting what we the electorate do not want is appalling. please stand down the lot of you you are a disgrace. these people are only temporary yet their deeds will be permanent and I feel they should not be allowed to do this any longer.

It is indeed surprising, that the Parish Councillors continue to choose to conduct themselves in this way, given the strength of feeling and the numbers of those who oppose their 'initiative'. I, too, was at the meeting last night. The reasons given by the Chairman for the absence of 4 out of the 9 councillors was that the meeting was 'special', therefore short notice, and the absent councillors had other commitments they were unable to avoid. The same facts stand for the public, and if we apply the same logic, then rather than standing room only (the case last night), the Festival Hall would have been half full. If, as Duncan Herald continues to claim, there is widespread support for turning the Heyes Lane allotments into a carpark, he will be disappointed to learn that the public representation at the meeting last night was pretty unambiguous. We, the electorate and the residents of this village, DO NOT want you to destroy our precious green space and replace it with tarmac. The petition of 1,700 signatures is further evidence of this.

Frank Keegan appears to be a law unto himself and I suspect trying to rationalise his position would be a pointless venture. However, I am dismayed that the other councillors who were elected to represent our community appear to meekly support his dangerous and unpopular mission, and be willing to let him be the voice of the collective council in the face of such clear opposition. Will no one stand up to him? I simply cannot believe that of nine elected members, there isn't a single councillor amongst you who has taken a minute to think, 'Hang on. Perhaps we should show our electorate some respect. It is they, after all, who elected us. If our proposal is so unpopular, perhaps we should at least take some time to reconsider. Perhaps we could approach this a different way.'

Surely there is more to this than what is and isn't legal? Surely this is about listening to, and responding to the concerns of the people who live here? And that's NOT just a handful of allotment holders... It's 1,700 and counting....!

Mike,
please don't insult councillors pointlessly; you write that 'could not be bothered or some such excuse'. Councillor Sue Joseph is away on holiday with her husband on a holiday booked and paid for long before this 'special meeting' was called. I was at work.
Clair,
I tell it as it is told to me; most people don't seem to care much either way about the Heyes Lane allotments. Of course most of the public at the meeting were against the loss of the Heyes Lane allotments; they surely were the people who turned up for that very reason?
Graham,
I do wish that the P.C. had begun with a clear and thorough policy on the Medical Centre and Heyes Lane etc. Of course we didn't; I for one was taken by surprise by the sudden need for the P.C. to provide a new Medical Centre in quick time. NHS and NHSEngland's constant 'buggering about' hasn't helped either! As a result, my view has 'evolved'; hasn't the view of other people?
Fenton,
you write that Councillors failed to turn up (see my above to Mike); as you will remember, back in the day when I was 'liason' between P.C. and Allotments' Society, both Councillor Joseph and I turned up for meetings with both yourself and your previous Chairman, to try and effect a win-win result. Please don't 'knock' those of us who simply couldn't be there last evening.

Clearly I believe that I do a reasonable job; if you don't agree then stand for election and get me thrown out.

Duncan I am not insulting you or your pals. I am merely stating an opinion of what I observed. it is my opinion and i am entitled to it , as you would have been if you were there last night. I sincerely hope that with the election coming next year we get enough people standing for the council that we can get rid of the current incumbents .

Duncan

I am not an allotment holder but do care about green spaces and have a balanced view to the issues surrounding parking issues and solutions. In other words weighing up whether a particular solution is better or worst than the problem it seeks to solve.I am convinced that many other people living in Alderley Edge are similarly minded, firstly because we talk and I hear such views and secondly I see that a substantial chunk of the village has made the effort to sign a petition. Accordingly I don't know how you arrive at your comment that "most people don't care much either way".

I appreciate that some Councillors couldn't turn up last night, fair enough, but to go ahead with an important vote without a full compliment seems somewhat disrespectful.
It implies that no Councillor could have the potential to be influenced by the opinions expressed by the allotment holders or wider public on the evening.

I would have liked the opportunity to debate on the evening but was met with the opening gambit by the chairman "this isn't a debate, it's a parish council meeting".
If anyone is unsure why that is offensive have a little pause for thought and look again. Had you attended, intuition tells me you would have found it as cringeworthy, low grade and undemocratic as I did.

It's still not too late to talk.

Frank Keegan,

No agenda here, just a desire here to stop a wonderful village being turned into 'just another place', and as you kept ramming down everyone's throat, a lot of the allotment holders aren't even from the village.

Frank,
Why not shelve the idea of a tunnel then and ask people to walk over the bridge. It is still a perfectly reasonable and sensible idea and it might be a better solution than the one currently being proposed. Well, if not better, certainly an idea that would keep more people comfortable with living here.
That said Frank, you have to admit that it was another shocking meeting last night from a PR standpoint. Shameful.
I sense the Dogs of War gathering...

In 2011 Alderley Edge it had a population of 4,638 so if 1700 signatures appear on a Petition to say that this is NOT what our Village wants I think we got the correct result.

Once again I am astounded at the way in which an elected official chooses, on a public forum, to address a member of the the electorate which put him in office..

On that basis Trevor, do you possess the turn out figures for the previous PC election?

Accusations of a class B drug use towards chorley hall lane site now...

Well perhaps we should put in a request for a special shed and drinking den on the new Lydiate lane site!

From the language used I know who reported this accusation.

Frank Keegan,

I am not worried about 'the cost of creating a car park on Heyes Lane' I am only concerned with the facts that the Village doesn't want it and it will not solve the parking problem as it almost certainly won't be used fully.

My suggestion to build a central car park on the Village end of Chorley Hall Lane playing fields is certainly not 'wild and fanciful'. It would offer a lasting solution to the parking situation and if it was either free or priced well it would attract visitors into the near centre of the Village and stimulate trading which our shops and businesses so urgently want.

Your outrageous reference to late night drinking etc perhaps shows to everyone that you have found the last 24 hours a somewhat rattling experience. The criticism level against you and the other members of OUR Parish Council in the posts here would seem to suggest all is not well!

I agree, Mike Dudley-Jones, that Frank Keegan has made some outrageous remarks to date on this site, but to my mind perhaps the most laughable quote is this (to Fenton Simpson):

"Do you think it is time that you consulted your members about some of these “off the wall” ideas? In the interests of democracy, since it is a vital issue to the village, do you think such a meeting should be in public so that the public can attend and ask questions?"