Plans submitted for cafe in the park

The plans look great! A shame it won't offer more covers but can understand the need to keep the existing footprint. Well done to all those involved and let's hope everything goes smoothly!

Great idea, I hope it happens. There won't be a need for more covers than that once they permit takeout coffee cups. I spend many an hour wandering around following my children and would love to sip a fresh coffee as I go.

Well done Sooze and all others involved.

As residents of Alderley Edge and having used the park for years when our children were small, we think this is a fantastic idea and wish it had been here years ago.

We would like to offer our services to provide the floor coverings for the cafe, supplied and installed free of charge as a contribution back in to the community.

Am I correct in understanding that the Alderley Edge Parish Council voted against this proposal at the recent PC meeting ?

I remain at a total loss. The PC seem able to object to anything that community spirited residents bring forwards and only favour their own bizarre schemes such as tarmacking over a well establish allotment plot.

I am reminded of the (nearly ) words of King Henry II in respect of Thomas a Beckett, "Will no one rid us of this turbulent Parish Council ? "

As Benjamin Franklin might have said, "there are only 2 things certain in life, death and elections".

Kate that's really generous of you - true community spirit!

Let's hope your generosity promotes some more of it in this village : )

I'm all in favour of this and congrats to all who; have fought for, will build, maintain and run this enterprise. However, I can't help but be concerned for the nocturnal safety of this isolated and vulnerable building. I'm wondering what security measures have been considered, if any, given previous youths/booze (and other!) in the park after dark issues. Security lighting? Moths to a flame.. Alarm? Too remote to be viable and a great 'toy' for the aforementioned. Steel shutters just beg for grafitti and vandalism. All obvious solutions will be financially no-goers (CCTV, security guard, frequent PCSO visits?)
I'm not sure what the answer is or if it has been considered at all.

Marc and just for clarity; I am told that Alderley Edge Parish Council (Plans Sub-committee) turned down the application on the grounds of a ‘lack of information’, for example details about the source of utilities, etc. They also complained about the sparseness of the plan documents and were somewhat scathing about some of the detail on the application.

The facts are: we envisage that the utilities will be taken from the bowling pavilion (BTW the cost of which Birse would have contributed to if AEPC had been more consistent in their support). AEPC knew this. The perceived ‘sparseness’ is due to our not wanting to alter the existing building any more than necessary. This is our initial application and subject to change. The ‘detail’ complained about was the name, Friends of the Park, being put in the printed box, on the application form, marked ‘Company name’.

Another fact, of which many will not be aware is that at a meeting on the 14th June, 2010 a proposal was put before AEPC : ‘that the Parish Council expresses its support for the principle that such a cafe be created’. The proposal was carried. Further, that: ‘Alderley Edge Parish Council is of the opinion that a cafe within the park would be an asset and would encourage people to visit and spend time there’.

(The immediately above is contained within a letter addressed to me personally and dated 24th June, 2010. If anyone would like verification of this and indeed any other evidence of support for the cafe, please email me at )

Given the above, wouldn’t it have been much more helpful if the PC HAD approved the application; subject to further information being provided? This isn’t Tesco/Dobbies or indeed, a major property developer/or Another wanting to despoil the village or financially benefit from an application; this is the Friends of Alderley Park wanting to do something on behalf of the community of Alderley Edge. Unfortunately, this is yet another example of the PC working against the wishes of local people. Despite this and because we still live in a democracy, we will continue with our application.

Please do use this wonderful, community site to comment on our application. This is your project and you are all at liberty to have your say on it; either in a positive or negative way

If you are supportive, please do write to the planners using the reference above

The thing is:
Do we realy need another cafe ? we already have five sit down cafe's + shops you can get take out food and bars, all paying much more in rates, we don't want to take custom away from them do we.
Like Chris says, security could be a problem and we don't want it to look like a closed toilet when it's not in use.
Spend money on the park, yes - on a cafe, I am not too sure.

Support for a cafe in the Park seems to be based mainly on the thought of eating and drinking
on warm sunny days in yet another venue without questions being asked about more serious matters.
What will happen if the venture is not financially sustainable and the proposed proprietor walks away and leaves the building unattended?
Has a proper business plan been prepared by the proposed proprietor and more importantly been examined by an impartial accountant for an opinion as to it's viability?
Who will be the legal owner of the building and who will be legally responsible for it"s upkeep
and appearance?
There will inevitably be more graffiti and litter which raises the need for a park attendant to be appointed.How will this be dealt with?Under the existing arrangements the Council cannot even
keep the flower beds in reasonable condition as they are neglected and overgrown.Has this not been noticed? My wife and I visit the Park on almost a daily basis often with a brush pan to clear up broken glass to protect young children and dogs from injury.
The Park is a very pleasant amenity and it would be a great shame for it to deteriorate due to
misplaced enthusiasm and a lack of effective controls.
The public need answers to make an informed decision.

Peter, not sure if you are the gentleman who attended the Parish Plan Consultation meeting two years ago(when all the points above were addressed) but in any case, your comments are completely fair and valid and I hope the below helps to clarify things:

We have every confidence that the venture will be financially sustainable. There is clearly a demand for such facilities within the village (a good friend of mine queued for a drink at Costa Coffee for some 15 minutes this week) and the park is a much more pleasant place to meet people and enjoy all that the park has to offer; particularly for young families, although as our survey showed, older people (we now have two nursing homes in the village) would also benefit.
The proprietor of the cafe will be granted a Tenancy by CE and pay a proper rent and of course, rates. He or she will therefore have full Tenant responsibilities and in view of the commitment mentioned below is not likely to simply walk away.

A proper business plan has been prepared by one of the potential proprietors, Luke Tomlinson of Groundup Coffee and this can be viewed if necessary. Luke has been enthusiastic about the project from the outset and would be prepared to fit out the cafe at his own expense, so keenly does he recognise the potential involved. This being said, there would have to be a proper tendering process, giving other interest parties the opportunity to participate. In terms of viability, anyone entering into a lease and the expense of fitting out the cafe would not do so without a proper business plan and being confident about the potential success of the enterprise.

The legal owner of the building is currently Cheshire East. Were a lease to be granted, responsibility for the building would then be shared between CE and the leaseholder and the detail of this would be contained within the lease.

Potentially, there could be more graffiti and litter and this would not be uncommon in such a space but we would hope not and again, the Tenant would be responsible for any litter associated with the cafe; there would be clauses specifically in relation to this contained within the lease. It could be argued, that the park would be generally cleaner and more pleasant as a result of the cafe being there. The park is a relatively small space and having a park attendant might be difficult to justify, given its size. However, if it was felt necessary and the cost could be offset by income from the cafe, wouldn’t this be beneficial; given what you have said about the state of the park.

As you rightly comment, the park is a very pleasant amenity and it is disappointing that the Council do not even keep it in reasonable condition. I have to say that whilst it is very public spirited of you to help by removing glass, etc., I think that given the amount of money allocated to the park, this really should not be necessary.

The public does need answers (about the whole of the park) in order to make informed decisions and we are happy to provide as much information as possible. For example, you may not be aware that of the £33,000 spent on the park last year, some £20,000 was spent on the upkeep of the bowling green and pavilion alone; this included the cleaning of the lavatories on a weekly, monthly and quarterly basis (and the provision of loo rolls at some £552.17!). Given your efforts in the park, you may question why you have, in effect, been subsidising the bowlers who pay very little to use the green and have sole use of the pavilion and the lavatories.
Many may question this inequity and why it has been perpetuated. Here, there has clearly been a ‘lack of effective control’.

In the future and to avoid issues such as the above, we hope to be part of a Management Committee to oversee the running of the park. This is a public space for the community to properly use and enjoy. A thriving cafe would legitimise the public loos being open to ALL on a regular basis and it shouldn’t be forgotten that in the George Osborne Questionnaire some 74% of local people expressed a desire to have the loos open regularly.

As you suggest, if the park is left to deteriorate, it would be a shame; the cafe would halt this decline and turn this wonderful space into something of which we could all be proud.

Thank you once more to all those supporting the project.

Having read the above thread with an open mind, I have to say that Susan's responses to questions raised are persuasive and well-considered. I'm dismayed, on behalf of Susan and others who have clearly spent a lot of time and effort in order to plan the proposed project properly, to learn that the Parish Council have U-turned and now oppose something that they originally supported. This must be very disheartening, especially given that it is a community-driven project and the Parish Council purport to represent the interests of the community. I have visited a number of cafes in public parks in locations in the UK and North America over the years and, if properly managed, they can be very successful enterprises. I wish you and your allies the very best of luck, Susan.
P.S. I'm curious. Exactly how many bowlers subscribe to use the green and the 'exclusive' toilets? £552.17 on loo roll sounds like a lot, considering the green is used only seasonally...!

If allowed, the park cafe will be a great success! It's not about sunny days either. Many of us would love to grab a hot coffee (and sarnie) whilst we are pushing the little ones on the swings. It's not feasible to juggle hot drinks and a buggy down London Road. If one does, it will be spilt or cold by the time you get to the park. Surely bins will be provided outside the cafe for rubbish. And the threat of graffiti is no reason to prevent this great idea. I wonder if people are searching for issues to oppose this fantastic venture?

You look at any park that has a cafe the world over & it does a roaring trade!

It may be helpful to remind people of the differences between this planning application and almost every other. Usually, when planning permission is given, it is not for a specific business but for a use. So - planning permission was given for the new retail unit on London Rd and Tesco moved in. The permission was for a retail usage - the council had no control over who exercised that usage and many people wished that it had not been Tesco.

The Cafe in the Park is different. The Council will also be the landlord and so will be able to excercise control over who becomes the tenant and the terms upon which the tenant takes the property.

Susan Holland has pointed out the many benefits, a continuous presence, loos open etc. but the central question of this thread is the granting of planning permission. If it is granted, there is no guarentee that it will be operated, the building will need altering and mains services provided. All this will require funding and Friends of the Park currently have limited funds. Without planning permission, further work even exploring the terms that a possible tenant will take, would be a complete waste of time. Without planning permission, the whole project will be dead in the water before anyone knows if a possible tenant will actually put his/her money where his mouth is. Preliminary work has been done and outline business plans prepared by Luke - but no one is going to do the detail design and planning work until they know whether there is a real possibility of the project going ahead. The Friends are in a Chicken and Egg situation.

So - as I have been saying to the Friends for the best part of maybe two years, the process is to get planning permission, generate the detailed design work, and then set about fundraising and obtaining offers like that made by Kate Branagan at the top of this thread. Once the whole package has been generated, then the Council can open the tendering process and IF a suitable tenant comes forwards with a realistic business plan - can grant a lease.

One final point, this scheme has taken the best part of three years to get to this point. Clearly its going to take time to bring to fruition even after permission is given. Planning permissions have a finite life, my memory had six years but I may be adrift by a year. So, this is not some irrevocable step, In the event that no tenant can be found to take on the Cafe and the work commence within a six year period, the permission would lapse. The Council can always, not grant or renew a lease. Giving planning permission is not the end of the process, its a tentative first step.

I would love to see a small cafe operating within the park. Anything that encourages people to use the park has to be a positive thing for the village.

Thanks again to all those in support and I hope my second comment has addressed Peter Liddle’s concerns.

Before I comment further on the current position, a little history might be pertinent. As both Claire and Marc assert; this is very much a community project and as such, is different from other developments within the village.

From the outset, it was precisely because of our awareness of this difference that we worked hard to manage our enthusiasm and not impose our views on others. In an effort to go through the correct channels we approached the Parish Council and Cheshire East (Macclesfield Borough Council) at the earliest opportunity.

I should perhaps make clear that whilst we were aware that we didn’t actually need the ‘permission’ of AEPC (and they are, after all only Consultees in the planning process); we felt their support and guidance in such a community lead project would be paramount.

I personally contacted the Estates Department at Macclesfield; to ascertain the ownership of the park and whether they were any covenants restricting the use of it. We canvassed opinion locally, including businesses, all the schools, nursing and care homes. We regularly publicised our progress both on this site and in the local press.

We had support from our MP and were touched to receive monies from the Fete (revived after many years) and the Rotarians (from the Bypass run); all good, local, worthy participation and recognition by the community in general that such ideas should be embraced.

Turning to the current position; Marc does make good points about the planning application. Whilst I can readily agree that we are in a ‘Chicken and Egg’ situation; the reason for the delay does perhaps require more explanation. After working hard to do the right thing (as above) and long discussions with Cheshire East, they said they would pay for the planning application. Reacting to this and in time for the Parish Plan Consultation, held at the Festival Hall some 2 years ago, we produced out plans for the cafe, kindly put together by Hall Needham.

At this meeting, we were prohibited from providing more information about the proposed cafe; despite there being overwhelming interest in our display/presentation. We felt we had been denied a proper hearing. (Please remember that the cafe idea stemmed from the Parish Plan; a tool to give people more say in their community.)

We subsequently heard at a meeting with Cheshire East officers that certain local Parish Councillors had asked them (and I use polite terms here) to ‘bin’ the project (I do have the names of these two Councillors and there is a very definite interconnectedness between what was happening generally).

Feeling this was undemocratic, we asked to meet the Parish Council and this meeting took place in early March last year. We attended the meeting in order to specifically address the Council’s concerns. Despite this meeting being unsatisfactory from our point of view, after much badgering, we finally received an acknowledgement from the Council in the following June that they had voted in favour of the cafe; in principle.

There are various reasons why we delayed making our current application and whilst we are all aware of the major changes that have taken place within local government, it should be remembered that financing the cafe was never dependent on assistance from either Cheshire East or the Parish Council.

I am saddened to say that the success or otherwise of this project will ultimately be down to personalities; those who were bold enough to stand up to our ‘elected’ representatives and those with hidden agendas.

It is clear with both this issue and others that the community of Alderley Edge lacks proper representation and the comments on this site addressed to his constituents by Frank Keegan, only serve to highlight this deficiency.

The term ‘snapshot’ should be remembered when elections are called; apathy is the overwhelming reason Mr, Keegan in particular remains in office, not his ability or humility or indeed his wish to serve and represent the wishes of his electorate.

To Peter Liddle, re. the state of the flower beds and vandalism in the park.

1.The current position of the Parks Officers at C.E. is that there are 'financial cutbacks' such that work on flower beds is very much reduced. One 'solution' under consideration is to remove flower beds i.e. grass them over. Its not the fault of the Officers. I am in negotiation with the Officers to try and get attention paid to A/E Park e.g. at least dig them over, remove weeds etc., and make them look better. I may manage it, I may not.

2. The vandalism i.e. rubbish, is of two sorts I believe (a) rubbish dropped by young children (what can you do? shout at the parents?) and (b) bottles & cans left (often broken) by teen drinkers; I have tried to get a bye law in place to forbid drinking in the park (not at events by responsible people etc.) but seemingly that is not a legal possibility. You pick it up, I pick it up, others pick it up, two days per week the C.E. employees pick it up... perhaps we might jail a couple, 'pour encourage les autres'?

To Peter Liddle (part two). Hi, Weds. & Thurs. we got two C.E. chaps into the Park. Leaves blown away from tennis courts, pathways and tracts of grassed area. The bed by the car park dug over. Greenery slaughtered. They told me that they will be back to continue weeding and to plant bulbs and winter flowers. There y'go, people power at work.

To Peter Liddle (part three).
Hi,
take a stroll in the Park...beds dug over and weeded and pruned; you could eat your dinner off them!...some over-hanging tree branches removed...planting of the beds to continue in the near future...the leaf blowers have been in action on three different days; apparently these blowers are so powerful that they even blow away the dog poo!...and we even get blue skies and some sunshine! Compliments to the Parks Officers at C.East for their helpfulness.