Tatton MP resigns from Cabinet over Government's Brexit deal

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Tatton MP Esther McVey has resigned from Theresa May's Cabinet this morning, following yesterday's announcement of the Government's Brexit deal.

Ms McVey resigned as Work and Pensions Secretary, a position she has held since January having been promoted from Deputy Chief Whip following a cabinet reshuffle.

In a letter to the Prime Minister she wrote "The deal you put before the Cabinet yesterday does not honour the result of the referendum. Indeed, it doesn't meet the tests you set from the outset of your premiership."

Ms McVey continued "The proposals put before Cabinet, which will soon be judged by the entire country, means handing over around £39bn to the EU without anything in return. It will trap us in a customs union, despite you specifically promising the British people we would not be. It will bind the hands of not only this, but future Governments in pursuing genuine free trade policies. We wouldn't be taking back control, we would be handing over control to the EU and even to a third country for arbitration.

"It also threaten the integrity of the United Kingdom, which as a Unionist is a risk I cannot be party to."

She added "We have gone from no deal is better than a bad deal, to any deal is better than no deal.

"I cannot defend this, and I cannot vote for this deal. I could not look my constituent in the eye were I to do that. I therefore have no alternative but to resign from Government."

Ms McVey's resignation came an hour after Brexit secretary Dominic Raab quit.

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Esther McVey
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Comments

Here's what readers have had to say so far. Why not add your thoughts below.

Vince Chadwick
Thursday 15th November 2018 at 4:20 pm
Tatton as a constituency voted 'remain'. Esther seems not to give a stuff about that and follows her own Tory far-right anti-Europe career path. Perhaps she should also resign as our MP?
Jon Williams
Friday 16th November 2018 at 10:12 am
Cheshire East official result:
Area total

Remain: 107,962

Leave: 113,163

Electorate: 285,957 Verified Ballot Papers: 221,229 Turnout: 77.4% Ballot Papers Counted : 221,229 Valid Votes: 221,125 Rejected Ballots: 104
Duncan Herald
Friday 16th November 2018 at 12:00 pm
Good Afternoon Vince,
May I assume that you are not a Conservative voter?
You write 'Tory far-right anti-Europe'; most Conservatives I know are centrist rather than far-right and not especially anti-Europe but just don't wish to be an intrgral part of Europe (which is not the same as being anti).
I have both spoken with and listened to Esther; she is far from being (imho) the type of Tory you describe above.
If by any chance you are a Labour voter (and I'll refrain from writing 'Labour far-left pro-Europe, as I don't know where you stand) might you kindly explain the current position on Europe/Brexit of the Labour party, as I am rather confused as to what it might be?
Merry Xmas.

Jon,
thank you for the figures.
A Merry Xmas to you too.
Marc Asquith
Friday 16th November 2018 at 1:23 pm
Tatton Result:

Remain 54.2%
Leave 45.8%


Let's not play games with Stats.

Vince said that Tatton voted to remain and he is correct.
Jon posted the Cheshire East Result.
Alan Brough
Friday 16th November 2018 at 4:05 pm
The UK (as a whole) voted to leave the EU - fact.

Politicians (on all sides) should now get together, put their party differences to one side and focus their collective efforts on securing the best outcome for UKPLC

It's either that or I'm going up The Edge to look for the Wizard and his 100 knights on white horses to ride to save the nation in it's hour of need.

Personally, I believe the Knights have a better chance of delivering a favourable outcome than the political incompetents that have worn our colours since the referendum vote.
Vince Chadwick
Friday 16th November 2018 at 4:16 pm
Duncan Herald; you can assume whatever you like. How I vote is my business and your impertinent assertion and subsequent assumptions the rest of your post rests on therefore require no response from me.

Only the Lib Dems seem to be talking sense on Brexit. And no, Duncan Herald, you cannot deduce from that that I voted for them. Or that I didn't.
Dave Clarke
Friday 16th November 2018 at 4:44 pm
I am worried about our MP, what will she do now? As I haven't seen her out and about a great deal doing anything in the Constituency since her election. In fact I have only seen her 'on her turf' once and that was pre election when canvassing. I am not anti Conservative just stating a perspective.

I am sure by making what I feel is a fair comment I will unleash the four horses of the apocalypse - but please correct me if I am wrong, unfair and she is actually out and about in Tatton every weekend.
Jon Williams
Friday 16th November 2018 at 7:40 pm
Dave, she will leave and get a job with a Newspaper in London !
Tony Haluradivth
Saturday 17th November 2018 at 9:25 am
https://bit.ly/2QGZDcR
https://bbc.in/2Tlzh1S
Tatton as a constiuency voted by a whisker to Leave. Above are the links the original figures quoted by Messrs Chadwick and Asquith were merely estimates provided by Professor Hanretty at UEA as the Referendum was not counted according to Constiuency so he could only "guestimate"the BBC figures are more exact. The BBC provided a spreadsheet which is downloadable.
Duncan Herald
Saturday 17th November 2018 at 12:16 pm
Hi Alan.
Could you call up King Arthur as well please as wielding Excalibur in the House of Commons would be entertaining?
I agree with your implied point that only the single U.K. vote has any validity.

Hi Vince.
Impertinemt? Assertive? Me? Nah!
Just a teeny, tiny point: you attack our M.P. as a Tory but don't reveal your own party loyalty/membership; might we see some 'sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander'?

Merry Christmas All.
Vince Chadwick
Saturday 17th November 2018 at 1:49 pm
The outcome of the referendum vote was only accurately measured at local authority level. There are no official figures for constituency level voting.

However, published estimates of the Tatton vote suggest approximately 55% voted remain, while 45% voted leave.
Paul Williams
Saturday 17th November 2018 at 9:45 pm
Can anyone actually name anything that will improve the country if/when we leave the EU, with or without the deal?
David Hadfield
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 12:53 am
Yes, Paul Williams, I can name numerous things that will improve this country once we leave the European Union ;

1) We will make our OWN LAWS and decisions, and will NOT allow the EU to
make them and impose them on our behalf.
2) We will spend our money on the infrastructure of the UNITED KINGDOM, and
not give the EU £10.bn each year, just to receive a small amount back.
3) We will decide who comes into this country, and not be told by the EU who can,
and cannot, come here.
4) Our Supreme Court will make the final legal decisions, and we will not be over-
ruled by the European Courts with their hair-brained schemes and ideas.
5) We will be allowed to trade with any country in the world and not be dictated to
by the EU as to what country we can, and cannot, trade with in future.
6) We will not have to join the proposed EU army. Whereas, if we were still in the
EU we would have no choice but to join.
7) If we had stayed in the EU, their projections were that, from next year, we would
be paying £18.bn per year …… (a massive increase from £10.bn per year)

Unfortunately, Theresa May is a Remainer and seems to be doing everything to stall Brexit and what it stands for …… this country voted to LEAVE THE EU and she should carry out the wishes of that referendum result.
Vince Chadwick
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 5:00 pm
Try again, David:

1) We always have made our own laws. If you think they are made in Brussels, you don't understand how the EU works.

2) We get back from EU membership far,far more than we pay in. Not all in cash payments of course (although a lot does come to us that way), but in making our country wealthy and successful. We were the sick man of Europe before we joined. Until recent self-inflicted Brexit wounds we were a leading European nation thanks to the benefits of being part of a massive trading bloc. Just as an aside, how much do you think it will cost UK to develop our own Galileo system now we have excluded ourselves from the joint EU version? The sums are mind-boggling. Same goes for many medical and scientific developments (my brother, a physicist and leading international expert in his field, cannot believe the damage UK is doing to itself though scientific and medical exclusion from joint EU projects). Just the tip of the iceberg in things that we did jointly at shared cost that we will now have to do alone at 100% cost to UK. The Cornish used to get £60M a year from EU as a deprived area and will now get nothing, yet voted to leave! Turkeys voting for Christmas! EU grant-funded stuff is in fact all around us - infrastructure projects, heritage rail lines, stately homes... etc etc. but you wouldn't know it. In Scotland you will see blue plaques everywhere celebrating EU-funded projects, but in England we don't do that for some reason. EU membership costs about £2 a week for each UK national. I'd pay that just to retain my EU citizenship, the freedom of movement that confers, and a real passport (not a silly emasculated one in wrong-colour blue), never mind all the other myriad benefits of membership.

3) We suffer in UK from illegal immigration. These are by and large the immigrants we do not want here, the ones who are 'under the radar', contribute little and cost a lot in crime and social support. Leaving the EU will remove all those big fences you see at Calais from the Eurostar (or maybe you don't; Brexiters are typically not regular travelers into continental Europe). All those camps and gendarmes holding back the illegals - that border will move to Dover after Brexit, and our leaky border force won't cope (crikey, they can't cope now even with all that help from France!). On the other hand, the migrants that came in legally under EU rules are generally the ones we want, the ones with skills and education. They have to have jobs and / or ongoing funding or they can be legally sent home under EU rules (if UK Border Force have their act together enough to enforce that). So the 'immigrant problem' is almost entirely a result of inadequate enforcement of borders by UK, and it will get worse after Brexit.

4) We are and always have been and still are in charge of our own legal system. However, stand by to see a lot of environmental and employment protection law (that's UK law) repealed by Westminster if we we leave the EU. Much of that was driven by EU directives.

5) We can trade with any country in the World right now, and we do. Mostly we do it through EU trade agreements, which will cease if we leave. Then we'll be down to WTO rules which will cost us billions. Have you any idea how long it takes to hammer out a trade agreement that could replace the EU ones or the almost unworkable and expensive WTO ones even if we had the negotiators to do the work? None of us will live long enough to see it happen in any useful way.

6) This 'EU army'? Do you really believe that? It's in the same bracket as all those thousands of Turks who were going to flood into EU! Where are they?

7) Where is the proof of this? And also, see my answer to (2), above.

So.... Can anyone point to even a single advantage of leaving EU? The thousands of disadvantages of leaving are plain to see.
David Hadfield
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 5:45 pm
Vince Chadwick

1) If you think that Brussels do not dictate what laws we have to agree to, then there is no point in arguing any more with you as you are so blinkered there is no point in discussing anything further with you.

2) However, I will make one more comment on your view of the EU.

The EU does not have one single penny (or should I say euro)
ALL their money comes from the contributing 28 other members, with some paying far more INTO the coffers than they get out …… with the UK being one of the mugs who do just that, along with a few more mugs, but MOST of the 28 members actually TAKE OUT more than they put in …… and that's another reason we should leave.
I could go on but I already see you are so blinkered about the EU I can't be bothered spending any more time explaining to you how it all works.
Jon Williams
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 7:28 pm
I think we are all getting a bit fed up with all this "Better in / Better out", we ARE leaving early next year, end of.
Time to put this post to bed.
Vince Chadwick
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 8:10 pm
You could try answering my specific and real points, David. But you seem to have a amazingly simplistic view of the EU as a sort of 'money box' where any member who puts more cash into the box than they take out of the box in cash are mugs.

And you have the cheek to call me blinkered!
Vince Chadwick
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 8:18 pm
Jon, a friend of mine tells me that even at Brexit Central (AKA his local Wetherspoons) the mood was to just drop Brexit now, before it gets any sillier.

Roll on the People's Vote. After all, The People can't deprive The People of what The People now want.
David Hadfield
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 8:40 pm
Jon Williams ;
Yes, we are all getting a bit fed up with Brexit and its "Better IN / Better OUT"
However, this is the biggest upheaval that most people have ever known in their lifetime, so, naturally, most of us have very strong views on this subject.
You are correct in stating we ARE LEAVING early next year.
(despite Theresa May doing her best to delay the inevitable)

Vince Chadwick ;
We have had "The People's Vote" and we voted to leave.
No ifs, no buts, we voted to leave !

The Referendum Vote was the biggest turnout of voters this country has ever seen and the verdict was "WE ARE LEAVING" ….. despite the Government at the time spending £9.2.Million on leaflets and posters urging us to vote "Remain"
(The Brexiteers, by comparison, spent less than half of that on their advertising)

I didn't like the result of this year's FA Cup Final ……
However, I didn't ask them to replay it again the next week so my team may win ?
Paul Williams
Sunday 18th November 2018 at 10:43 pm
"I didn't like the result of this year's FA Cup Final ……
However, I didn't ask them to replay it again the next week so my team may win ?"



This may come as a shock, but that wasn't the first and only FA Cup Final.

They are having one next year.

What a good idea.




p.s.
thanks Vince
Graham McLelland
Monday 19th November 2018 at 10:11 am
Have to say that in 1974 I voted for the Common market as it was then.Since that time i have seen the fat cats of Europe with their platinum inflation proof pensions huge multi million euro buildings specially charted first class trains twice a yr taking ALL staff computers etc from Brussels to Strasburg only to be brought back a month or two later.The German leader opening all doors to Europe for migration/immigration .
This is not what I voted for in 1974.
I admire our MP and I will keep voting for her ,a woman of principle.
Paul Williams
Monday 19th November 2018 at 11:20 pm
"A woman of principle"

She appears to continually lie to parliament and the Work and Pensions Committee.

She is largely responsible for the roll-out of the Universal Credit which has plunged many poor and vulnerable people into severe poverty.

But she is not alone in this government in disbelieving how their austerity has affected people.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-46236642
Duncan Herald
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 11:06 am
Re. Dave Clarke's entry of Novenber 16th above.

Dave you write of our M.P. 'I haven't seen her out and about ... doing anything in the Constituency...'
Our M.P. is quite capable of answering but for the moment I'll try.

In general: she lives in the Constituency and is here every Thursday evening to Sunday evening, when there is no recess and often when there is.

Specific in November: The Charity Xmas card shop, A disability event, A full Surgery, A bonfire event, Opening Care Company Offices, Dead Man's Penny in Handforth, Spoken at a Local Builders' Conference, Remenbrance Sunday events in Knutsford & Wincham, Met the new Chief Fire Officer, Girl Guides meeting, Concert of a local signing group.

Not to mention the meetings that are not reported on.

It seems to me that she sets a fierce pace and is to be found in the Costituency very much.
Wouldn't you now agree?

Our M.P. doesn't make a song and dance when she is doing events/meetings etc.but just gets on with it!

My own view is that we are fortunate to have her!
Alan Brough
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 1:49 pm
Hi Duncan,

I have no doubt that the charity Xmas card shop, and the local builders conference (smile) et al are all worthy causes in their own right. However, what about the pressing issues that are consuming large chunks of the time and money of Tatton taxpayers?

Is E=McV doing anything to address the dangerous issue of parking on Alderley Road in Wilmslow?

Does she share the concerns of thousands of us in Cheshire East about the "shambles" that our local council is becoming, with several senior officers suspended (on full pay) pending the outcome of very lengthy enquiries into their wrong-doing?

Can she reassure us that the data on local air quality WASN'T falsified in order to rush through agreement on several development projects.

Does she share our concerns that, in a world that's trying to encourage environmental responsibility and the urgent reduction of greenhouse gases, the decisions of CE Council in cutting public transport services and thereby encouraging car use, flies in the face of intelligent thinking?

I only ask because, like Dave Clarke, I haven't seen her out and about, nor have I noticed much signposting toward her constituency forums.
John Clegg
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 6:57 pm
Alan Brough, it's 140 knights and whie horses. Unless there's a platton or so being held in reserve.

David Hadfield, under all recent governments (even Mrs Thatch's, I seem to recall - but I will be delighted to be proved wrong), the U.K. was the most enthusiastic enacter of EU-created laws and regs: I think that this was a pragmatic approach, seeing as none of them were likely to kill or harm citizens and so it seemed like a good idea. I recall (again verification might be required) that the UK's rush to enact EU-friendly legislation surpassed even supposed Europhile nations such as France and Germany, who would more likely analyze and debate the new regs.

And lazy comparisons shouldn't be drawn with the FA Cup: it just doesn't work, does it?

As that rather cleverer-than-me bloke once said (it wasn't J. M. Keynes, apparently): "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

For what it's worth, I voted "remain" but only by a whisker. I can see good and bad in both sides of the fence. One convincing factor was not being seen as being on the same side as largely tax-absent lovely people such as the owners of the Dailies Mail and Telegraph and Times (yes, I know that they're not the same person...). Or even Richard Desmond.

What is a worry is that short-term gain refers to many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of job losses.

But, like the Millennium Bug, no-one really knows.
John Clegg
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 7:06 pm
Blimmin' heck. My spelling. Tsk!
Tony Haluradivth
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 7:28 pm
Vince Chadwick those figures you cite are an estimate and Hanretty (UEA) professor admitted they could be off the mark. A bod from the BBC Compiled a spreadsheet as I said before and sat down with a calculator . All the Unitary authorities gave him the official counts from ALL THE WARDS and Parishes in the boroughs. He matched all villages and towns in the Tatton and other constituencies and crunched the actual numbers. Leave in Tatton did win by a narrow margin. This was all done a little while after the referendum . Your figures are wrong (outdated and debunked)
Alan Brough
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 7:49 pm
John Clegg,

You’re correct in that, in the original telling of the story, when the Wizard pounded the Gates of Fundandor and entered the subterranean cavern, there were 140 knights. However, the negative reaction of world markets to the referendum vote means you only get 100 knights to the pound.....

.....I’ll get my coat.
David Hadfield
Tuesday 20th November 2018 at 8:15 pm
Paul Williams ….. seems as though you're suggesting a Brexit referendum every year, just like the FA Cup Final ….. How's that going to work then ?

John Clegg …. Yes, this country is, mainly, quite law abiding and agrees to carry out the rules and regulations that is demanded by the EU.
We may argue the case, but usually we carry out the EU demands.

Whereas, most of the other countries within the EU say they'll agree to everything they're ordered to do, but they don't usually do it ?

Do you remember the many occasions when Italy, France, Spain, etc, are fined millions of Euros because they didn't carry out EU instructions ?
Did these countries pay the fines ? ……. Nah, of course they didn't …….
They just refused to pay the fines and eventually the EU gave in and cancelled any fines imposed on them.

However, if the UK are fined by the EU, we usually pay them, reluctantly.
John Clegg
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 6:47 am
David H, I don't know if reports of nations being fined is entirely accurate.
The EU is right to fine if nation's adopt rules and regs but don't follow them.
However, some countries - notoriously, according to the press, France and Italy - adopt only the ones they seem to like.
Who actually monitors these stories, or is it just wild ravings from newspapers who need to sell copies?
And who follows up the boring procedures and technical legal stuff in the months following? None of them.

I made up my mind years ago not read and believe what I read in the press, and I certainly won't be aligned on the side of companies who don't pay their moral and ethical share if tax in this country.
Hello, the Barclays, Murdochs and Harmsworths. I'm talking to you lot.
David Hadfield
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 7:19 am
John Clegg, well done, I totally agree with you about biased reporting, with the Biased Broadcasting Corporation being the best (or, should I say WORST)
John Clegg
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 7:37 am
Really? This is one of those things that get repeated by those with vested interests but is difficult to.prove conclusively.

I don't see a lot of evidence that they are biased. Which side do they plump for?
David Hadfield
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 9:06 am
John Clegg, if you've already made up your mind years ago not to read or believe anything in the press (and presumably you mean television and radio) then how can you ever gain any information as to what's happening in the world ?

You must be extremely blinkered and cannot express anything about what's happening in the world ….. you've already admitted you don't read the news ?

I read newspapers and listen to television and radio, then make my own assessment as to what's happening in the world.

Is the BBC biased ? …… Yes, totally !
John Clegg
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 9:38 am
You still haven't revealed which way the Beeb is biad

You've gleaned some info about me and based your opinion on what you think you know. That's what we all do, to some great degree.

But reading your fave newspaper is particularly insular. No-one - well, hardly anyone on here - reads ALL the newspapers and listens to all the news.
It only panders to your view anyway, because they want your money. They are preaching to the converted.

And no-one has a completely balanced view, do they?

My other sources? Private Eye, BBC, what I see on the 'net when I have time to further dig down in a current issue...

My politics? I won't ever vote Labour, and I can't vote for the tories - and I really should be one of theirs. What I've seen and read since the 2010 election about the real harm inflicted on people and services is enough to put me off them.
Duncan Herald
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 9:43 am
Good Morning Alan,
you pose several questions regarding M/S McVey's views/positions about important local metters ; instead of posing these questions to me, may I seriouly ask you to make an appointment to speak with the lady herself, at a surgery perhaps, where you can put these questions to her and get the answers you need. Esther is very approachable; she even talks to the likes of me!
You might approach the Conservative Office in Knutsford or contact her office in Westminster?

I enjoyed your Nov. 20th joke above!
John Clegg
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 9:45 am
And I stopped reading and believing the press once I realized The Independent 1992 or so when it stopped being so.
John Clegg
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 10:02 am
I really, REALLY despise my 'phone for auto-mis-spelling and adding or taking-away punctuation.
Do we have an "edit" option on here, like that nice Mr Z's little online group?
Vince Chadwick
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 10:16 am
John Clegg; you said "But, like the Millennium Bug, no-one really knows.".

You seem to have as poor an understanding of the Millennium Bug problem as that twit, Rees Mog, who said much the same thing on BBC R4 (maybe that's where you got it from?). He generated a ton of wrath from IT professionals over his public ignorance, which translates directly to the Brexit issue.

The execrable Rees Mog (and Bernard Jenkin), hard brexiters both, publicly displayed their ignorance and destroyed any credibility that "Brexit will be a breeze and we'll look back and wonder what the fuss was about".

Ocean going idiots, both. Not for supporting Brexit, for they have their own agendas there (to pick up juicy tit-bits at knock-down prices for their financial empires from the smoking ruin that UK will be after a no-deal crash out next year, and to be able to run a low wage low employee protection economy afterwards). No, they are ocean going idiots for displaying their ignorance and stupidity in comparing Brexit to the Millennium Bug problem.

They say "everyone panicked in the late '90s about computers unable to handle the roll-over from 1999 to 2000 dates, and in reality, nothing happened".

Of course nothing happened! Nothing happened because companies all over the world spent an absolute fortune checking computer code for date fields that would not handle numbers above 1999. I know, I was there, and very much involved with the IT projects I was managing. And a great deal of code dating back to 1960s mainframes was indeed found to have such limited date fields, coded by programmers in the days when memory and storage space was very limited indeed, and who never dreamed their code would still be in use at turn of the century.

It was a massive operation. Affected code had to be corrected, and then of course it had to be tested to ensure the changes had not introduced any new bugs. Unlike know-nothing politicians with selfish personal agendas who label experts as peddlers of 'project fear', the computer industry took the professional approach of fixing the problem rather than waiting to see what happened and then trying to pick up the pieces from the resultant wreckage.

Just like the Millennium Bug, if you look under the bonnet of Brexit you will see the disaster that will happen if you 'just do it'.

Of course these politicians have the advantage of being able to hood-wink a not-too-sharp public into supporting their agenda. The Computer industry was, thankfully, a tad smarter than that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45083650
John Clegg
Wednesday 21st November 2018 at 11:06 am
V.C., you've taken my point and viewed it from your own point-of-view as an IT pro, rather than the overview.
I wasn't denying the problem of the Millennium Bug, but to the end user - i.e. over 99% of us out here, and not the few thousand who had to provide updates and patches - there was hardly a blip.
I also think that that is the point that those 2 were making, even tho' I hardly want to be seen to be one their side.
Tony Haluradivth
Thursday 22nd November 2018 at 10:42 am
Vince Chadwick you seem very keen on facts and figures so here goes...there is an EU document (all available for Public scrutiny) dated 2015 which makes EU policy over Turkey's accession very very clear. Turkey IS on the accession countries list ( as are Montenegro and Macedonia 'et al' only they are much further along the accession process). None of this has changed even with a dictator such as Erdogan at the helm, it merely slows the process down but the end goal is very much for TURKEY TO BECOME A MEMBER STATE.
Macron last week has already called for a single European Army as had Chancellor Merkel begore him. Buried in the fineprint of that same document (which I alluded to earlier) is the stated EU goal of closer cooperation between member state's national armies leading to uniformity , avoidance of waste and duplication through a central procurement department ( based possibly in Belgium. And on a seperate but not unrelated note Brussels is a city renowned for shady private arms dealers who operate nonetheless legitimately in that city and have immense lobbying power). The stated goal again in that very document is for eventually a single army in Europe to defend Europe and the EU member states. This is not an overnight process obviously but more a slow and gradual process of absorption. But Vince the aims of this Supranational organisation are laid out VERY CLEARLY and beneath the hype of some Leavers is a story which is essence is absolutely true. I have tried linking by pasting this document but as it is a huge pdf file it will not let me as I am typing this on a smart phone.
Tony Haluradivth
Thursday 22nd November 2018 at 11:42 am
http://www.benbest.com/computer/y2kfeb.html
And Vince you may be an IT expert but you know full well that not every major company was Y2K compliant.
Here is a more proportionate view of the "crisis" from other IT experts. Interesting to note that not ALL IT experts who provided remedial measures for big companies to protect against the Y2K Bug were mouthing of about being "saviours" many were lot more "sotto voce" than yourself. Alderley Edge IT is a mere ripple in a vast IT ocean. I always find that with big claims and counter claims, hype and scaremongering that the TRTUTH lies somewhere in between. (And am gratified to note that I am not alone in this)
Tony Haluradivth
Thursday 22nd November 2018 at 11:48 am
Many typos' above, so apologies folks (but you get my gist). Caused no doubt by my fat fingers and need for new reading glasses ;))
Alan Brough
Thursday 22nd November 2018 at 3:06 pm
My Dear Duncan,

I’m pleased you enjoyed my quip of the 20th

But it was as nothing compared to the comic irony of YOU scolding me for posing questions on this forum.

I’m hoping that Ms McVey, now that she finds herself with more time on her hands, might recognise that this very popular forum is a useful conduit for public opinion, expression and debate and perhaps grace us with an appearance.

Last time I drove past Conservative HQ in Knutsford it was a lampshade shop or something???
Vince Chadwick
Thursday 22nd November 2018 at 7:42 pm
Tony Haluradivth, what is 'Alderley Edge IT'? Is it something different to world wide IT?

And can you tell me which major company or companies was or were not Y2K compliant by the turn of the century?

The IT industry were not, and would never ever claim to be, 'saviors' as you proclaim, merely competent professionals, as I stated.

That aside, your somewhat disjointed post seemed to me to be devoid of a point. Was there one?
John Clegg
Thursday 22nd November 2018 at 10:44 pm
Still waiting to find out which side towards the Beeb is biased.
David Hadfield
Friday 23rd November 2018 at 7:59 am
John, if you don't keep up to date with any form of news, as you have admitted, you'll never know that the BBC is biased and if you have to be told which side the BBC is biased towards, then it just shows your total lack of awareness in the world
John Clegg
Saturday 24th November 2018 at 11:17 am
DH, you're just assuming I don't keep up with the news. I just don't read the owners' thoughts and demands which are supposedly presented as newspapers, by owners whose are largely absent from the UK for tax reasons. The Beeb gets pilloried for being left-wing or right-wing by all sides - plus Harmsworth, the Barclays and Murdoch as well as any number of MPs always snipe at it - so it must be doing something right.
Private Eye get scoffed at regularly, but it's the only magazine which regularly holds up to scrutiny misdeeds of our supposed "betters" - whether they are in govt, big business, the judiciary, public health...They've only made one major mistake in recent years, and that was siding with Dr Andrew Wakefield in his stance against inoculating kids for MMR for a relatively minor and un-proven risk of autism - and they swiftly apologized.
When do the big newspapers ever apologize properly?
And the poorly-kept secret is that most of those institutions have copies delivered to them fortnightly.
So, go on - to which side are they biased? Or, at least, tell us which is your fave newspaper?
John Clegg
Saturday 24th November 2018 at 11:44 am
...or more correctly, those newspaper owners who personally, or whose businesses, are largely absent from the UK for tax purposes.
Duncan Herald
Monday 26th November 2018 at 2:04 pm
Hi Alan,
a quick note afore we slide off the page?

In your entry of 22nd above you mention that I tend to ask questions on this forum; quite so and do you notice that local worthies tend not to answer? People may draw any conclusions they wish from that.
Still posing questions is better than me banging on with my own opinions!

You stated that the Conservative H.Q. in Knutsford looked unlike an H.Q. (was that what you meant?); we moved from the former large building to a small place around the corner, to save money. Surely you approve of that piece of austerity?

You mention M/s. McVey again; have you not taken my suggestion (as posted above on the 21st) to visit her and put your questions directly to her? Go on! Just do it! You may find engaging directly in politics is so much fun that you stand for the Parish Council; they were 'advertising' for volunteers' to be co-opted. I'll vote for you.

Merry Xmas
Tony Haluradivth
Tuesday 27th November 2018 at 8:29 pm
Vince Chadwick read the a previous article pasted. I prefer facts over emotion. Just because you are the probable "font" of knowledge in your own house it may not necessarily apply in the wider world. If you state something is so, others are entitled to present further facts to support their arguments. A lot of lowly IT specialists became extraordinarily rich thanks to the Y2K problem, perhaps some of the vast sums of our money thrown at the problem WERE squandered. Tell me please how come South Korea and Italy spent little to nothing in Y2K remediation yet had the same negligible Y2K problems as those countries which had invested heavily in resources to fix the problem . Perhaps the accusations of "overkill" and hype may not have been wide of the mark after all.
Vince Chadwick
Tuesday 27th November 2018 at 11:43 pm
Tony Haluradivth, if you prefer facts over emotion you would have voted to remain.
David Hadfield
Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 8:32 am
Vince Chadwick - Facts over emotion ? ..... Hmmm ….. let me see ?

Do you mean facts such as the UK sending £10.BILLION to the EU every year, and shortly to increase this to £18.BILLION per year as per the scale of increases due from many EU members to compensate for all the hangers-on EU countries that take out more than they put in, unlike the UK.

Do you mean the extortionate costs of sending 750 trucks from Brussels to Strasbourg every 3 weeks, for one week only, before returning to Brussels, just for France to allow the MEP's to sit at the EU buildings in Strasbourg that were built by the French without the permission of the EU, for the French to demand these buildings be used every 3 weeks ….. How much does that cost ?

Fact ; The EU are going to create their own EU Army … (they said the would not) ?

Fact ; Thousands of EU Presidents, Commissioners, MEP's, Civil Servants, etc, are paid salaries, expenses and pensions way above normal values that make a mockery of rewarding people for work done ?

This is only the start, but I can't be bothered telling you more Facts at the moment !
Vince Chadwick
Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 1:18 pm
David, you made those points on 18th November in this thread. My extensive post of 5pm that day specifically addressed them and does not need repeating. I suggest you go back and read it.
Tony Haluradivth
Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 3:12 pm
Vince Chadwick you are very fond of NOT addressing the facts presented and come across as very didactic and unyielding. You too are not above making wild assumptions on how folk voted. You have no idea how I cast my vote in 2016 or whether I voted at all. Perhaps that us why there is a kind of "pile on" on this forum..Remember "Comment is free
Jon Williams
Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 3:21 pm
Agree with above, give it a rest Vince

Time this thread was closed !
Vince Chadwick
Wednesday 28th November 2018 at 9:55 pm
I see from BBC news that now even the government is predicting ANY! Yes ANY! Brexit scenario will result a serious economic downturn for UK. How can anyone want that?

Since the government (and the BBC) are both strongly pro-Brexit, I think we can take that as a substantial understatement.

Roll on the people's vote and a return to rationality.
David Hadfield
Thursday 29th November 2018 at 1:08 am
Vince,
Thought I would send a couple of questions yesterday that were similar to the ones I send on 18th November, as you quite rightly say.
Why did I send them again ? ……. because you decided you'd put your slant on my questions and everything I'd stated ……
You're very good at doing that, so I've noticed.

You state the BBC and the Government are both pro-Brexit ? ….
Eh ? …… you're having a laugh !!

They are both anti-Brexit, as you very well know.

They are both also promoting the new version of "Project Fear" and the world (well, The UK's world) will implode, according to Phillip Hammond and the failed Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney, the man who has predicted so many things and got most of them 100% wrong !!
Vince Chadwick
Thursday 29th November 2018 at 9:48 am
I won't say "as you jolly well know" as you presumptuously did to me, I will merely point out that If the Government were anti-Brexit the nonsense would stop right now and Brexit would be binned, with the support of a People's Final Say (The People, as I have said, cannot cheat The People over what The People want).

The BBC tells the story its government masters tell it to. The right wing popular press (Mail, Telegraph, Express etc.) naturally push a right wing pro-Brexit line complete with one-sided reporting and downright untruths about the EU and how it works. Only the Guardian and Independent take a more rational view.

'Project Fear' is how Brexiters square the irrational circle. We live in a post-rational society (Trump, Brexit, MMR refusal) where experts (people who actually know what they are talking about) are derided if what they say does not chime with popular but ignorant social media opinion. The irrational simply make a box labelled 'Project Fear' and put such expert opinion into it. Job done.

I hope you never need brain surgery, but if you do will you want an 'expert' brain surgeon to carry it out, or Joe the garage mechanic because he's reputed to be good with his hands?
Duncan Herald
Thursday 29th November 2018 at 11:21 am
Like him and his policies or not, President Trump was clearly elected democratically and seems to be carrying out what he said he would.
Just thought I'd mention it.
If that nice Mr, Corbyn becomes P.M., will he carry out all the policies he's mentioned?
Just thought I'd ask.
John Clegg
Friday 30th November 2018 at 11:24 pm
I don't quite know how trump-y's got on here. Maybe it's a diversion - y'know, fake news and all that.
No party seems to be held to any sort of account, regarding election "promises" or any other lies printed in their manifestos. Last time out, in 2017, just after promises were made to electrify large stretches of almost primitive lines in un-fashionable northern areas, a long way from London, these plans were dropped.
And, yes, Vince, Jon Williams (above) is right: give it a rest. We know that brexiteers don't want any one to question the brave decison that they took. No-one is allowed to debate the result. Remember their mantra: "you lost. Get over it." Hardly divisive at all.
Vince Chadwick
Saturday 1st December 2018 at 10:21 am
I liked J.K. Rowling's tweet:

"May's suggestion that a #People'sVote would 'overturn the will of the British people' makes literally no sense. Who does she think would be voting? The Chinese?
John Clegg
Saturday 1st December 2018 at 11:32 am
And, David Hadfield, Mark Carney only warned about the possibility of a downturn following brexit: he wouldn't be doing his job if hadn't done so.
And you still haven't revealed to which side the BBC is biased today, or yesterday, or last week. Nor have you told us from where you get the information and news by which you form your opinion. But that doesn't matter so much, because we can't verify that anyway.

As a general point, everyone had an opinion following the vote in June 2016: in some measures, both pro- and anti-Eu views have been, on balance right and wrong. How crazy is that?
The pound has slumped but there has been no catastrophic damage to the country's overall financial position wrought by brexit; it has mostly been affected by the tories' insistence on austerity (for the not-so-elites...) and by the march of (mostly...) multi-nationals' against - largely - their employees' pay and benefits, and lack of real spending on proper training and R&D.
Vince Chadwick
Saturday 1st December 2018 at 1:03 pm
John, I don't disagree with your final paragraph but of course we haven't left yet. You don't feel the pain until shortly after you've actually jumped over the cliff.

However, while a catastrophe has indeed not happened yet and was not predicted to until after Brexit, according to the Bank of England and economists generally the UK economy is performing well below the level it would be were it not for Brexit uncertainty. And much other damage which is not immediately obvious has already happened, such as us being frozen out of many joint EU scientific and medical initiatives.

A kamikaze 'no deal' crash-out is clearly unacceptable, parliamentary acceptance of May's deal looks unlikely, so a final public vote is looking ever more likely.

Oh, and the BBC? Check out my post of 29th.
John Clegg
Saturday 1st December 2018 at 5:09 pm
It's not your view of the Beeb's bias,it was a previous post-er's.

It looks like there's un-certainty in the wider world trading and financial system which is hampering U.K. growth - EU growth is up and down, China seems to slowing, the U.S. looks good on paper but I think that a lack of real wage growth and non-jobs give a false impression - but I do think that a combination of factors domestically aren't helping our own outlook. I forgot to include household debt as another factor here in the U.K.
Graham Jackson
Saturday 1st December 2018 at 10:06 pm
“Best way to describe the EU to Americans … join with north and south america, open your borders and trade, pay to be a part of the club and create a government in peru that moves to brazil twice a year for no reason and let them make decisions on your laws and regulations which you MUST follow.”
Duncan Herald
Monday 3rd December 2018 at 9:43 am
Graham,
Just perfect !
Vince Chadwick
Monday 3rd December 2018 at 12:26 pm
Graham.... Facile.
Graham Jackson
Monday 3rd December 2018 at 7:35 pm
Vince....and here I was thinking it was profound.

Vince this for you....

LEAVER: I want an omelette.
REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.
LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]
REMAINER: They’re in the cake.
LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.
REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.
LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.
REMAINER: Icing is good.
LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.
DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.
DAVID CAMERON: OK.
DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.
LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?
REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.
LEAVER: Well, get them out.
EU: It’s our cake.
JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.
REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?
LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.
REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?
LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.
THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.
REMAINER: How?
THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.
REMAINER: Yeah, but…
LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.
EU: It’s our cake.
REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.
LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.
REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.
LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.
REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?
LEAVER: You lost, get over it.
THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.
REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?
THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.
REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?
JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.
EU: It’s our cake.
LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.
REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.
LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.
REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.
LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.
Vince Chadwick
Tuesday 4th December 2018 at 11:05 am
Something that has become clearer over the last 2 years is the strength that a unified EU has. After the vote, in contrast to the UK they met, they agreed a response, and then they carried it out for the benefit of their members.

The trouble is, that can be used by both sides as a weapon. ‘Strength in unity’ for pro-Europeans, or ‘oppressed by bureaucrats’ for leavers..

There are a ton of good reasons to have a second vote, there is no cogent reason not to have one. When the referendum was held in June 2016 few realised what the possible outcome of a Brexit could be; that is now somewhat clearer.

The argument that a second vote would split the population further holds no water - the country is split as never before.

The first referendum was very poorly set up and managed; only lemmings would jump in comfort based on that.

A Dutch friend tells me there is no laughter at UK on the continental side of Europe, only shaking of heads and sucking of teeth. There is amazement at the UK’s ability to generate the mess the UK now finds itself in. This chimes with what I find on my continental travels when perhaps chatting with an educated and well-travelled German; "what the heck are you guys doing to yourselves?". I can only agree, while pointing out that nearly half the UK didn't want this, so please don't paint all Brits the same colour.

In most affiliations there are times that the relationship needs to be reviewed, perhaps adjusted, maybe even broken off, be it in love, work, friendships or treaties. But to storm off in a hissy fit is unlikely to ever lead to a good result.

As long as the UK is lead by emotive party politics and red tops there will only be losers.

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